Greatest Hits vs Greatest Hits ...

[TBone]

Perhaps that's all 1 really requires from any particular band with partial musical interest, and near every band offers a GH type compilation/set. But sadly, many include that dreaded loud limiting/compression/artifacts usually associated with remasters/GH comps.

But it wasn't always that way ...

An example:

Heart 1998 Greatest Hits (EK69015) ...

(some dr values)
Magic Man=dr6
Crazy On You=DR9
Dreamboat Annie=DR7
Barracuda=DR8

Original Heart 1990 Greatest Hits (EGK36888)

Magic Man=dr13
Crazy On You=DR12
Dreamboat Annie=DR12
Barracuda=DR14

Honorable mention ...
Audio Fidelity 2011 GH (AFZ119)

Magic Man=dr12
Crazy On You=DR11
Dreamboat Annie=DR13
Barracuda=DR12

(edit: if the above AF is HDCD encoded, that process could reflect on the dr values improperly. however, all my AF HDCD exclude the hdcd peak-extend functionality, so the numbers should remain accurate)

I own the orig and the 1998 pressings above (not the Audio Fidelity) versions, and can safely say that the 1998 compilation sounds as bad as it measures. The original is easily the better listen; still 1 of my better sounding GH comps. While I own Dreamboat Anne and Dog & Butterfly, its the orig GH that gets played most ...

 

[NorthSky]

Antoine, I don't have the above albums but I love Heart.

I love this acoustic live concert one:

I have no idea about its ↑ Dynamic Range Compression though.

And I have yet to check their latest one, just released about a week ago (July 8):

______

 

[DonH56]

I have long espoused the opinion that the biggest difference in sound quality between older LPs and newer CDs is the incredibly lousy (re)mastering most CDs have been through. Some of my CDs are amazing, but many, especially pop, have clearly been compressed and EQ'd so they are nothing like the originals. E.g. I have three or four versions of some ELP (Emerson, Lake, and Palmer) CDs and the sound varies wildly among them. And some Sheffield remakes that have fantastic sound.

I also tend to feel the biggest advantage boutique CDs have is almost entirely the mastering and not the golden 100 g CDs...

 

[TBone]

I have long espoused the opinion that the biggest difference in sound quality between older LPs and newer CDs is the incredibly lousy (re)mastering most CDs have been through.

Yes, which may very well explain why many still prefer vinyl over digital. That said, the same thing happened with CDs, the originals offered similar dynamic content to the orig LP, but subsequent remasters went south. Casualties of the loudness wars, both formats suffered accordingly, under the guise "Remaster".

I have three or four versions of some ELP (Emerson, Lake, and Palmer) CDs and the sound varies wildly among them.

Very interesting.

I've a few original ELP LPs, which still require ripping. Recently ordered a few of their older orig CDs, prompted after ripping the self-titled album; an orig Cotillion pressing, ~180 grams of superbly flat, thick, and beautifully mastered/pressed vinyl. While it still sounds awesome in parts, it suffers from years of teenage abuse, seemingly embedded w/noise and scratches. Take a Pebble, case in point, one of my favorite ELP songs, very dynamic on the orig LP but now too noisy; was hoping for the same dynamic contrast on the orig CD.

---

ELP have released a few different GH comps (none of which I own). Listed are a few comparative values ...

1984 CD: The Best Of Emerson, Lake & Palmer.

DR12, 01 Hoedown
DR11, 02 Lucky Man
DR12, 03 Karn Evil 9DR10, 04 Jerusalem
DR12, 05 Peter Gunn
DR11, 06 Fanfare For The Common Man
DR13, 07 Still... You Turn Me On
DR13, 08 Tiger In a Spotlight
DR11 ,09 Trilogy

2011 CD: The Essential Emerson Lake & Palmer CD1 (of 2).

(comparative with 1984 GH CD value)
DR10, (11) 01-Fanfare For The Common Man
DR10, (13)02-Still... You Turn Me On
DR12, (12)03-Hoedown
DR11, 04-Black Moon
DR9, 05-Tarkus
DR10, (10) 06-Jerusalem
DR10, (13) 07-Tiger In a Spotlight
DR11, 08-Better Days
DR13, 09-From The Beginning
DR9, 10-Knife Edge
DR10, (12) 11-Karn Evil 9
DR11, 12-I Believe In Father Christmas

 

[Sal1950]

Saddly in my original bout of ripping before my move to FL I didn't enter any of the catalog or sku numbers in the meta data. This is a practice I now follow religously.
In any case,
ELP The Best of ELP,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed: Best of Emerson Lake & Palmer / Artist: Emerson, Lake & Palmer
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Duration Title [codec]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR12 -0.69 dB -16.85 dB 3:46 01 - Hoedown [flac]
DR11 -3.54 dB -19.05 dB 4:37 02 - Lucky Man [flac]
DR12 -2.43 dB -17.31 dB 4:48 03 - Karn Evil 9 (1st Impression, Part 2) [flac]
DR10 -3.23 dB -18.01 dB 2:45 04 - Jerusalem [flac]
DR12 -3.00 dB -18.30 dB 3:37 05 - Peter Gunn [flac]
DR11 -3.03 dB -17.45 dB 2:56 06 - Fanfare for the Common Man [flac]
DR13 -4.94 dB -25.21 dB 2:54 07 - Still...You Turn Me On [flac]
DR13 -3.90 dB -20.31 dB 4:34 08 - Tiger In A Spotlight [flac]
DR11 -2.39 dB -18.90 dB 8:50 09 - Trilogy [flac]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of files: 9
Official DR value: DR12

Sampling rate: 44100 Hz
Average bitrate: 820kbs
Bits per sample: 16 bit

Dr14 T.meter 1.0.16
==============================================================================================

 

[Sal1950]

For comparison, the latest ELP Brain Salad Surgery re-master off HDTracks. Not to bad DR for a modern remaster.
Sound wise nothing to brag about, just OK. And all the additional cuts on this "Deluxe" version are useless IMO, for my server I edited a version with all the junk back on the cutting room floor.
"Remastering Information:
The source tape was an original 15 ips quarter inch analogue tape from the ELP Vault, transferred on an aligned/Azimuth checked Studer A820 Master recorder through a Maselec mastering desk/EQ/Compressor and A/D converted via Apogee PSX100 at 24/96kHz to a Sadie digital audio workstation for final EQ and level matching.
Engineered at Wired Masters in Tooting Bec, London."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Brain Salad Surgery (Deluxe Edition) / Artist: Emerson, Lake & Palmer
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Duration Title [codec]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR12 -1.14 dB -19.02 dB 2:43 01 - Jerusalem [flac]
DR12 -1.12 dB -19.80 dB 7:19 02 - Toccata [flac]
DR12 -2.67 dB -22.32 dB 2:50 03 - Still... You Turn Me On [flac]
DR12 -1.08 dB -17.15 dB 2:20 04 - Benny the Bouncer [flac]
DR13 -1.83 dB -17.53 dB 8:35 05 - Karn Evil 9 1st Impression, Pt. I [flac]
DR13 -0.93 dB -17.77 dB 4:46 06 - Karn Evil 9 1st Impression, Pt. 2 [flac]
DR13 -3.66 dB -22.79 dB 7:04 07 - Karn Evil 9 2nd Impression [flac]
DR11 -3.24 dB -18.38 dB 9:01 08 - Karn Evil 9 3rd Impression [flac]
DR12 -3.04 dB -17.88 dB 9:08 09 - Karn Evil 9 3rd Impression (Original Backing Track) [flac]
DR11 -2.79 dB -17.54 dB 2:46 10 - Jerusalem (First Mix) [flac]
DR12 -3.30 dB -19.51 dB 2:53 11 - Still... You Turn Me On (First Mix) [flac]
DR13 -2.38 dB -21.74 dB 7:23 12 - Toccata (Alternate Version) [flac]
DR12 -3.16 dB -18.76 dB 8:35 13 - Karn Evil 9 1st Impression, Pt. I (Alternate Version) [flac]
DR12 -1.89 dB -18.10 dB 4:48 14 - Karn Evil 9 1st Impression, Pt. 2 (Alternate Version) [flac]
DR14 -3.33 dB -23.40 dB 7:05 15 - Karn Evil 9 2nd Impression (Alternate Version) [flac]
DR12 -1.74 dB -19.23 dB 9:06 16 - Karn Evil 9 3rd Impression (Alternate Version) [flac]
DR12 -3.67 dB -19.66 dB 2:52 17 - Excerpts From Brain Salad Surgery [flac]
DR13 -1.80 dB -17.74 dB 3:56 18 - When the Apple Blossoms Bloom In the Windmills of Your Mind I'll Be Your Valentine (B Side Single K13503) [flac]
DR12 -1.18 dB -18.13 dB 3:06 19 - Brain Salad Surgery (B Side Single K10946) [flac]
DR13 -1.58 dB -16.69 dB 2:22 20 - Brain Salad Surgery (Instrumental) [flac]
DR12 -1.06 dB -15.47 dB 8:23 21 - Karn Evil 9 3rd Impression (Different Version) [flac]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of files: 21
Official DR value: DR12

Sampling rate: 96000 Hz
Average bitrate: 2035kbs
Bits per sample: 32 bit

Dr14 T.meter 1.0.16
==============================================================================================

 

[TBone]

I was looking at the values of the Deluxe issue online, even inc. 'em above ... but then I'd read a few things about different songs mixes, so perhaps not fully comparable. But yes, decent numbers, Steve Wilson master, I believe? I was looking at the 2012 DVD Audio - 5.1 mix and couldn't help but notice Take a Pebble = DR16, the same value as the orig LP. Wondered if they included a 2 ch mix down version with = dr value, such as Ken Scott's fabulous sounding Ziggy Stardust mixdown (w/dr values ~16).

 

[Sal1950]

I don't have any Heart GH's and all the Heart I have is on LP rips.
I'm a lazy LP ripper and only rip to 2 tracks, sides 1&2 with Audacity. Here's my Dreamboat Annie - The Nautilus SuperDisc LP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Dreamboat Annie (Nautilus SuperDisc) / Artist: Heart
----------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Duration Title [codec]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR12 -3.27 dB -18.95 dB 20:19 01 - Side 1 [flac]
DR13 -2.58 dB -18.59 dB 19:55 02 - Side 2 [flac]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of files: 2
Official DR value: DR13

Sampling rate: 44100 Hz
Average bitrate: 804kbs
Bits per sample: 16 bit

Dr14 T.meter 1.0.16
============================================

 

[TBone]

ELP: not listened to BSS in a long time, can't remember if my orig LP sound was worth bragging about either?

Heart: Those numbers look about right, perhaps why used Nautilus remasters tend to remain expensive around here.

 

[TBone]

Steely Dan GH (MCAD6008) ...

... another GH comp that matches well along side the originals ...

DR13(13)-01 Do It Again
DR12 (12)-02 Reeling In The Years
DR14(14)-03 My Old School
DR13(13)-04 Bodhisattva
DR13(13)-05 Show Biz Kids
DR13(13)-06 East St. Louis Toodle-Oo
DR12(12)-07 Rikki Don't Lose That Number
DR12(12)-08 Pretzel Logic
DR12(12)-09 Any Major Dude
DR15(*)-10 Here At The Western World (* original version, previously unreleased)
DR14(14)-11 Black Friday
DR14(14)-12 Bad Sneakers
DR13(13)-13 Doctor Wu
DR14(14)-14 Haitian Divorce
DR13(13)-15 Kid Charlemagne
DR13(13)-16 The Fez
DR12(13)-17 Peg
DR14(15)-18 Josie

 

[Sal1950]

But yes, decent numbers, Steve Wilson master, I believe? I was looking at the 2012 DVD Audio - 5.1 mix and couldn't help but notice Take a Pebble = DR16, the same value as the orig LP. Wondered if they included a 2 ch mix down version with = dr value

I had the Steven Wilson bit in my head too but found it curious that is name isn't mentioned in HDTracks "About" notes? Did a bit of Google and came up with this.

"This new reissue follows the label’s 2012 sets for ELP and Tarkus and follows a similar format: the original album in remastered form on Disc One, a different album presentation with an array of outtakes, alternates and early mixes on Disc Two, and new, high-resolution mixes on Disc Three, a DVD-Audio disc. Much has changed since 2012, however, not least of all the parting of the ways between the band and producer Steven Wilson. Prog hero Wilson has recently remixed albums from King Crimson, Yes, Gentle Giant and Jethro Tull, and it was anticipated that he would continue his association with ELP for Brain Salad. He’s been replaced by producer Jakko M. Jakszyk, currently of King Crimson, who is responsible for the new stereo mix available here in lossless 24/96 Advanced Resolution and 24/96 LPCM Stereo on the DVD-Audio disc. A key component of those earlier deluxe editions is missing, however: the new 5.1 surround mix which is only available on an import Super Deluxe box set."
http://theseconddisc.com/2014/07/31...ers-brain-salad-surgery-for-40th-anniversary/

 

[DonH56]

What do you use to get dynamic range readings?

For the record, no pun intended, I went through two or three samples of the original Works album by ELP before finding one that wasn't too warped or too noisy. Same thing happened with Pink Floyd's The Wall, and numerous classical recordings. Anything by CBS was suspect at the time. And some of the pop records I had sounded horrible and that had nothing to do with warps or surface noise but was all production/mastering choices. Even had issues with some of the supposedly higher-end American Gramaphone records, though they claimed shipping problems at the time (could well be true, I don't know, just know I and our customers were seeing a high return rate for a while there).

My foggy memory is that about the time the "high-fidelity" releases by companies like Telarc and MF came along, ca. late 1970's/early 1980's, a lot of mainstream albums were very poorly produced and manufactured. I started buying fewer albums overall but more from the "audiophile" companies because too many of the regular LPs had all sorts of manufacturing issues, from warps to off-center holes to high surface noise and excessive ticks and pops. Some of them felt like floppy discs they were so thin. On a limited budget I bought fewer but higher-quality discs.

Shortly thereafter Life happened and I drastically reduced my record buying and listening in general. I moved to mainly CDs but the huge variation in quality was a turn-off, again both in the sound and manufacturing quality (remember the plastic separation issues in the late 80's and early 90's?) And $30 for the premium version of a $10 CD did not fit with the budget demands of a new job, new family, etc.

No idea where things stand now; my TT is still in storage and unlikely to get out. I got rid of most of my (3000+) records, and suspect the remaining 350 or so are in pretty sad shape after many years of moving and storage. I don't know how many CDs I have now, probably under a thousand, and some of those would be best used for target practice. I did rip them all to FLAC recently and if work ever slows down hope to have more time to just listen. I also have maybe a dozen SACDs but my Oppo died about the time I got them so I have no way of playing them currently (plan to fix the Oppo, just never got around to it, and the cheap Sony BD player that replaced it does not handle SACDs).

 

[TBone]

Don, we commonly refer to values using what is known as the TT DR Meter. An offline download app exist, and Foobar has a plugin. An online user input type database meant to track values (but can be somewhat inaccurate) ...
http://dr.loudness-war.info/

 

[Sal1950]

What do you use to get dynamic range readings?

Me?
I run Linux and had Texstar build a custom rpm package for my PCLinuxOS install. The source code and packages for other Linux distros are available from the SourceForge DR14 page.
http://dr14tmeter.sourceforge.net/index.php/Main_Page

 

[NorthSky]

Album list
(95822 albums total)
DR scale

♦ ♫ ♠ http://dr.loudness-war.info/ → The Database of the Music DR Scale.

• ♪ ◙ http://www.stereophile.com/content/unofficial-dynamic-range-database#93LJWKT2bAR6LAkg.97

There are comments below that Stereophile's short article ↑ (points and context)
_____

♣ DR numbers as high as 32 → http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr/desc
WoW!

 

[TBone]

I also have maybe a dozen SACDs but my Oppo died about the time I got them so I have no way of playing them currently (plan to fix the Oppo, just never got around to it, and the cheap Sony BD player that replaced it does not handle SACDs).

Surprising, I generally don't hear much wrong with OPPO's build quality and/or performance, let alone 'em dying. Is it a transport issue? I ask, because I've eyed a few used OPPO's in the past to play ~20 SACDs. The price of OPPO's used still cost a pretty penny, so longevity ...

 

[TBone]

Eagles Greatest Hits, Vol 1.

My LP pressing, which I think is an original, makes my turntable sound too warm and slow in the bass.

So I purchased the E260511 w/scrolling "DIGITALLY REMASTERED" cover.

Not only didn't it lean-out the muddy bass, compression was added to the mix. Waste of audiophile money. Even the decent DCC version which I assume used tubes in the chain, doesn't sound as bloated.

DR values: comparing E260511 remaster to DCC remaster and Original CD ...

DR9.10.12 01-Take It Easy
DR9.11.12 02-Witchy Woman
DR8.11.12 03-Lyin' Eyes
DR7.9.12 04-Already Gone
DR9.11.12 05-Desperado
DR9.11.13 06-One Of These Nights
DR10.11.11 07-Tequila Sunrise
DR8.10.12 08-Take It To The Limit
DR10.11.12 09-Peaceful Easy Feeling
DR9.11.11 10-Best Of My Love

Still searching for an original Eagles GH.V1 CD to compare.

 

[Sal1950]

I have a version titled GH 1971-1975. Same track lineup and DR numbers?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Greatest Hits 1971-1975 / Artist: Eagles
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Duration Title [codec]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR12 -1.50 dB -16.07 dB 3:28 01 - Take It Easy [flac]
DR12 -0.97 dB -15.90 dB 4:09 02 - Witchy Woman [flac]
DR12 -0.60 dB -15.25 dB 6:23 03 - Lyin' Eyes [flac]
DR12 -0.87 dB -15.37 dB 4:12 04 - Already Gone [flac]
DR12 -1.07 dB -18.41 dB 3:33 05 - Desperado [flac]
DR13 -0.60 dB -16.23 dB 4:50 06 - One Of These Nights [flac]
DR11 -1.72 dB -16.85 dB 2:50 07 - Tequila Sunrise [flac]
DR12 -0.80 dB -17.25 dB 4:48 08 - Take It To The Limit [flac]
DR12 -1.46 dB -16.21 dB 4:15 09 - Peaceful, Easy Feeling [flac]
DR11 -1.29 dB -16.01 dB 4:30 10 - Best Of My Love [flac]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of files: 10
Official DR value: DR12

Sampling rate: 44100 Hz
Average bitrate: 803kbs
Bits per sample: 16 bit

Dr14 T.meter 1.0.16
============================================

 

[DonH56]

Thanks for the DR info.

My Oppo is an older model, BDP-83, and one of the lasers went out. They had me take it apart and clean it but no joy. I got an RMA at one point but was unable to follow through. They charge $100 for repair IIRC and, while not unreasonable, that bought me a new little Sony to get me through last holiday season (Oppo went out right before Thanksgiving). I was also debating about a newer model, but Oppo has some issues playing CDs, and I waffled on 103 vs. 105 and whether I wanted Darby or not. Still sitting on its box waiting for me to decide. Laser aging is an issue with any transport.

 

[NorthSky]

I had a laser problem with a Panasonic Blu-ray player; it couldn't read Blu-rays anymore, roughly 12 months and one day after I purchased it (no more under warranty); model DMP-BD55 (I paid $399 + 12% tax, Cdn). I contacted Panasonic higher technical team in Toronto; they admitted a laser issue with those models from that era. They offered me a deal that was so insulting that no more Panasonic products in my life...ever.

My Oppo 103 (no Darby → $499 + 12% tax and roughly $50 for shipping, Cdn) is still rock solid after two years plus.
But I don't use it for CD playback (just too bland, without life); I have several other dedicated CD players, much better sound quality.
But for Blu-rays (for DVDs I used other players), 3D and 2D I'm very happy with it. For SACDs and DVD-Audios I also have better players.
I have roughly seven Blu-ray players, the Oppo 103 is my favorite...strictly for Blu-ray discs...most reliable, and satisfying picture quality.
I would recommend an Oppo UHD Blu-ray player next. If not the 103D would do very well. If not the 105D, for adding analog stereo CDs, and asynchronous USB DAC. ...And headphones, of course.

If there was a Greatest Hits album for Blu-ray players, the latest Oppo BR players would certainly fit the bill. ...From extensive use and solid experience.
They happen to measure well as well. ...Bonus.

* Greatest Hits ♫ ... from different pressings and on vinyl and CD. ...All about the dynamic range compression the music engineers love to exploit for us kids, music lovers and audiophiles. ...It's mostly a joke, a selling and silly joke. It's up to us, and not to them where our money goes. But the majority (99%) of people simply aren't aware or even interested by quality music fidelity with the best micro and macro sparks from a wide dynamic range...reality and accuracy of true music.

This thread is good; is good for us, good for others, good for the new kids who want to learn who's doing a crappy job in this music industry and who puts more quality care. Music is like art, choose with knowledge, taste and dedication to love. Your investment will last longer and not depreciate. ...Oppo's philosophy, quality, solidity and reliability...generally on a vast average. ...Plus, most importantly; respect and support. ...Not the best but aspiring to...for the giving price.
HDMI ... in and out.