GR Research

[Tangband]

Danny in good at crossover designs and he fixes broken loudspeakers thats wrongly constructed in the beginning.
Being a DIYer myself- its rather easy to make faulty loudspeakers sound better if you got measurement tools and the skills do make it better.

And yes - cheap crossover parts with iron-coils and electrolyte capacitors are not good for soundquality.
You can get better , cleaner sound with air-coils and polyprops. An ironcoil inductor saturates at only a few watts depending on construction. Meaning its gonna distort massively. This is a fact. But you dont need super-expensive parts. There is no real listening difference between an ordinary priced polyprop and a super expensive- my conclusions.
Danny sells expensive parts and it might not be neccesary but it wont hurt either.

And yes, different cable pick up different amounts of RF . If it matters ? It depends of the driving impedance and the application. An amplifier has low output impedance and is not particulary sensitive against RFI if it has small filter coils on the output or other protections.

 

[Tangband]

One thing about Danny's measurements: they are gated so have no resolution below a few hundred hertz. They are usually fine by the time you get to the crossover frequency but still way too rough by our standards. We need to at some point evaluate one of his before and after mods that is no so obvious (i.e. NOT Klipsch).

Thats true, but many loudspeaker designs have massive faults at the crossover region between 2-4 KHz. A gated measurement and crossover rebuild can make it sound better, if one does it right. Dannys measurements says nothing below 500 Hz though.

 

[thewas]

Danny in good at crossover designs and he fixes broken loudspeakers thats wrongly constructed in the beginning.

Imho he often makes doesn't really fix them but just makes them look better mainly on-axis while ignoring directivity and sound power (and even distortions) which can get worse, nowadays even a big part of DIY community is much more advanced considering full angle radiation and using tools like VituixCAD than he is with his CLIO and few angles measurements like in the 1990s.

 

[Tangband]

Imho he often makes doesn't really fix them but just makes them look better mainly on-axis while ignoring directivity and sound power (and even distortions) which can get worse, nowadays even a big part of DIY community is much more advanced considering full angle radiation and using tools like VituixCAD than he is with his CLIO and few angles measurements like in the 1990s.

Thats true but fixing directivity is harder because in a two way loudspeaker youre in need of a waveguide and that means rebuilding the whole cabinet.

 

[thewas]

Thats true but fixing directivity is harder because in a two way loudspeaker youre in need of a waveguide and that means rebuilding the whole cabinet.

Sure, but you can optimise for example the crossover frequency regarding directivity which he usually doesn't, instead it seems he chooses such that it gives a nice looking addition on-axis.

 

[Tangband]

Sure, but you can optimise for example the crossover frequency regarding directivity which he usually doesn't, instead it seems he chooses such that it gives a nice looking addition on-axis.

He lowered the crossover frequency to 1,5 kHz in B/W 606 mod, to get better directivity.

 

[Colin James Wonfor]

As capacitors I have and like these used them in lots of SMPSU and in some speaker designs.

https://paktron.com/product/cs-capstick-series/

 

[thewas]

He lowered the crossover frequency to 1,5 kHz in B/W 606 mod, to get better directivity.

And as said he made the sound power not better which now has a peak in the 3-6 kHz region where it can be quite tiring from tonality point of view:

The previous original minimal crossover might be a mess on-axis but most people would prefer its sounds power tonality which doesn't peak as much in that region:

Also would be interesting to see the distortion above 90dB with the stock tweeter crossed as low.

 

[Tangband]

And as said he made the sound power not better which now has a peak in the 3-6 kHz region where it can be quite tiring from tonality point of view:

View attachment 160136

The previous original minimal crossover might be a mess on-axis but most people would prefer its sounds power tonality which doesn't peak as much in that region:

View attachment 160138

Also would be interesting to see the distortion above 90dB with the stock tweeter crossed as low.

Well, it seems that you are right about that .
B/W 606 is also a speaker with driveunits that have big frequency variations in the treble area, regardless of crossover.
I guess its all about standing out in the listening room at the shop with a brief listening.

 

[Ageve]

If you need one example of why his measurements shouldn't be trusted, compare the one in this video (0:25), with the ones done by John Atkinson:

B&W 705 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

And of course he's talking about "cheesy components" again, and the sand cast resistors being "very poor" which is obviously not true.

The 705 was made back when B&W still cared about good measurements, and it's much better than current models.

 

[Tangband]

If you need one example of why his measurements shouldn't be trusted, compare the one in this video (0:25), with the ones done by John Atkinson:

B&W 705 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

And of course he's talking about "cheesy components" again, and the sand cast resistors being "very poor" which is obviously not true.

The 705 was made back when B&W still cared about good measurements, and it's much better than current models.

Im my experience - switching sand-cast resistors to something more expensive dont make the sound better. Its better to buy 10 pieces and match and measure the resistors. However- coils and capacitors do often make a differense , but you dont need very expensive ones. Just use aircoils and polyprops. Going active is better still, ofcourse.

 

[jtwrace]

Going active is better still, of course.

Interesting to see you agree with much of what he does/say. You're aware that he is 100% against active, right?

 

[Tangband]

Interesting to see you agree with much of what he does/say. You're aware that he is 100% against active, right?

Yes - he wont bite the hand that feeds him. He earns money with passive upgrades.
Active loudspeakers have their biggest advantage in the EMK area, ( the bass ) . Noone can dispute that.

I have done some DIY in the past on passive loudspeakers myself ( not an expert ) and I have heard differences for the better using better passive components .

A good active design with dsp will detronise any passive loudspeaker.The difference is often very big . But a bad active design is a waste of money.

 

[jtwrace]

Yes - he wont bite the hand that feeds him. He earns money with passive upgrades.

Obviously.

Active loudspeakers have their biggest advantage in the EMK area, ( the bass ) . Noone can dispute that.

Through the whole range actually...no caps, resistors, coils etc.

I have done some DIY in the past on passive loudspeakers myself ( not an expert ) and I have heard differences for the better using better passive components .

Differences? Sure, I've heard differences too but that's just what they are. Different as neither of us can measure to know that it's exactly the same as it was. There's much more to it than just shooting the speaker on/off axis a few times.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Electrolytic capacitors have a shorter life span, and badly made iron core inductors can cause increased distortion. Some of the best speakers I have heard through the years had rather cheap crossover components.

This is 100% true!

 

[Tangband]

This is 100% true!

I dont think it is - quite the opposite.

 

[Spkrdctr]

I dont think it is - quite the opposite.

If you take my word for it, I will say you are a very smart person! Plus, you will be in good company. Just sayin.....

 

[ta240]

Thats true but fixing directivity is harder because in a two way loudspeaker youre in need of a waveguide and that means rebuilding the whole cabinet.

Isn't that then where it risks getting silly pouring hundreds of dollars into the crossovers on 'inexpensive' speakers?

 

[Tangband]

Isn't that then where it risks getting silly pouring hundreds of dollars into the crossovers on 'inexpensive' speakers?

Yes.
And not only that - modifications gonna lower the second hand value on your speakers to almost zero, even if its a good mod.
After building my own active loudspeaker with dsp crossover, the HYBRID, I gave up after a weekend with Genelec 8340 doing measurements. Its a fantastic loudspeaker. Its impossible to compete with a DIY loudspeaker if you compare with the best active designs like GRIMM or Genelec. They have the know-how and you dont. I bought the 8340.

But on a lower sound-level, like modifications on a speaker that costs like 300 dollars in the store, the GR-research might be interesting in some cases.

 

[ta240]

Well, it seems that you are right about that .
B/W 606 is also a speaker with driveunits that have big frequency variations in the treble area, regardless of crossover.
I guess its all about standing out in the listening room at the shop with a brief listening.

They really need to have something like TV's where there is a 'demo mode' setting so the picture looks good in the super bright store. Because the better speakers often sound bland in the store.

......
And of course he's talking about "cheesy components" again, and the sand cast resistors being "very poor" which is obviously not true.......

Buried in all the BS he probably has some good points but it is hard to put any weight into what someone says when you have to filter out so much of what they say. He is the classic example of a little bit of knowledge and a little bit of fact mixed in with plentiful BS so it sounds better.
It makes me cringe slightly when I see him referred to by people as an expert.

Im my experience - switching sand-cast resistors to something more expensive dont make the sound better. Its better to buy 10 pieces and match and measure the resistors. However- coils and capacitors do often make a differense , but you dont need very expensive ones. Just use aircoils and polyprops. Going active is better still, ofcourse.

I still think the people that just blindly switch out coils and capacitors have to be careful as they will end up with different resistances and it will affect the overall function of the crossover.
People that do measurements on the changes don't risk that but I think his videos lead a lot of inexperienced people to break open the crossovers in their speakers and spend a lot on 'upgraded' components.

The number one thing I see as a comment from people that replace electrolytic capacitors with poly is 'more detail'. Well, a poly will have less ESR so a bit more power will make it to the tweeter to increase the highs and thus... detail. And if they are replacing a really old electrolytic it may have been functioning more as a resistor so the difference will be even more amazing. Similar thing with changing iron core coils to air core. If you replace a low resistance iron core on your woofer with a higher resistance air core then the woofer will get a tiny bit quieter and again, the highs will stand out more.

The measuring and matching cheaper resistors is a great way to get more accurate parts without spending a fortune.