GR Research

[DSJR]

When you've been around this industry as long as I have, all aspects of the gear can be fascinating, although the subjective opinion side does start to wane eventually. I started in 1967 and bought 'HiFi Sound magazine' every month with my pocket money and that was a wonderful magazine of tech reviews (amps 'were' listened to but it was only noted if any distortions reared their ugly heads, as many amps weren't so good fifty odd years ago before the far east 'invasion really kicked off). The lay buying public then went tribal on THD figures and W&F for turntables, forgetting the other aspects which were being reported even then with cruder test gear. The pendulum swung back in the late 70's to subjective-led recommendations (the gear 'with character' designed in was often favoured and even today in the remaining subjectivist camps, properly performing gear sounds 'boring' to them - you'd be amazed at the dislike ot say, the sub £1000 Yamaha integrateds (most UK forum peepos either buy used, or only cheap new gear) as they apparently 'sound' grey and dead, or words to that effect.

I'm still like an overgrown schoolboy as regards some audio gear, but it HAS to technically perform properly FIRST and FOREMOST. I've had enough 'eye-fi' to last me several lifetimes and I'll never forget selling an excellent Revox A76 FM tuner and replacing it with a gorgeous looking and feeling Luxman T88-V tuner which made the sound as if it was passing through sludge.. I still have a Quad FM3 tuner which 'sounds' very natural and quiet with a good signal fed it, but it's nothing like as sexy as say, the vintage 70's Accuphase tuners which dripped luxury to the senses and which did well on the bench as well.

We NEED objective tests, but I do agree our other senses need to be fed as well. I passed over the Quad 606 family of amps when they first came along as they looked too much like breeze blocks to me. How stupid I was, as they still do the job really well, can drive more difficult loads the previous models didn't much like and run and run and run in a domestic setting. Today, the current Artera version (better performing than ever) is ignored locally in preference for Accuphase bling and the fraternity of Naim owners who keep adding boxes and more boxes to try to 'get a better sound' from this brand.

 

[Doodski]

GR Research LGK 2.0

A 3 or 4 inch driver is in a oversized box with some sort of filtering inside that costs ~$1013.00 finished or ~$450 in kit form. What part of that can't you understand makes this a ripoff/cash grab?

 

[Vacceo]

Forget about Darko. I feel like the audiophile community (especially ASR) loves to talk about Hi-Fi equipment without even experiencing it. I just don't see the point of this hobby if all you do is look at graphs measuring speakers you'll never see or experience.

I want to do Audiophile meetups. I'd love to have 6 people over to listen to an album and eat some pie. Call it tea time for nerds. That's what I want. I have a pretty exotic system.

I also understand that most, if not all of you are located outside of my country. So it's hard to get people interested, and it's even harder to find people in proximity. Maybe one day we'll experience a new system every other week.

Graphs and reviews are boring! I want to experience Hi-Fi for real.

Because if you happen to live in the middle of nowhere where you'd only listen to a super high quality speaker once in a lifetime, Amir's work is a lot more trustworthy than any creative writer.

Does it work? I ordered a set of LS50 Wireless II without demoing because thanks to Amir and Erin, I could get a very clear idea of what I'd listen to. Turns out they were quite right.

I'll cite two examples:
- GR Research LGK 2.0 thread.
- KEF LS60 Meta

You see lots not discussion. But it's obvious that nobody except the reviewer auditionned these speakers.

Why can't you just drive somewhere and audition these speakers?

Because sometimes you can't.

In this forum there are some members from places like Brazil or Mexico. Good luck getting to experience a pair of Kef Blades or Perlistens.

 

[kokakolia]

A 3 or 4 inch driver is in a oversized box with some sort of filtering inside that costs ~$1013.00 finished or ~$450 in kit form. What part of that can't you understand makes this a ripoff/cash grab?

It's surely a cash grab. So the chances of sampling a speaker like this one someday is very slim (unless you buy a unit). There are certainly better speakers for the money. I know that I'll never have a chance to audition this LGK speaker and that makes me a little bit sad.

Because if you happen to live in the middle of nowhere where you'd only listen to a super high quality speaker once in a lifetime, Amir's work is a lot more trustworthy than any creative writer.

Does it work? I ordered a set of LS50 Wireless II without demoing because thanks to Amir and Erin, I could get a very clear idea of what I'd listen to. Turns out they were quite right.


Because sometimes you can't.

In this forum there are some members from places like Brazil or Mexico. Good luck getting to experience a pair of Kef Blades or Perlistens.

I'm in France and there are countless HiFi products over there. I'm fortunate that I can easily travel to showrooms and audition speakers. KEF is way overpriced where I live. The LS50 Meta is 1300€ per pair.

 

[Pops106]

Did you look at listen to Amirs video about the little speaker that could (not) ?

It is very clear by both the measurements and the sound recorded on the video that auditioning, at least in this case, is not needed for this speaker.

In general I think speakers and headphones should be auditioned at home but see no reason not to not discussing measured performance.

To be fair and I don't want to come across defending or promoting anyone but.

That speaker was always going to sound like crap trying to play low down, it really needs to be crossed with a sub probably at 100hz+ more like 120/150hz.

Could Danny of put a cap in there to force it or at least stipulate it to say must be crossed at x yes very much so.

Would it sound good when used that like that, don't know, can't say I haven't heard it but the measurements don't look particularly bad then.

 

[Pops106]

I think you are all arguing the same thing.

Just depends how much of either side you sit on.

If you are all about measurements and it mesusered crap but the speaker sounded great (somehow) then you wouldn't just bin it, you might try and fix it possibly.

If it measured amazingly well but you just didn't like the sound you would sell it and move on.

Danny's personality is just a bit marmite and it makes it very easy to fall either side.

 

[solderdude]

That speaker was always going to sound like crap trying to play low down, it really needs to be crossed with a sub probably at 100hz+ more like 120/150hz.

Yes it will very likely sound good that way, but.... it was not sold to be used that way. Now Danny made a video using the same speaker + woofer basically admitting it is crap without it. That said... at around 4kHz distortion at 90dB also isn't exemplary either.

Its a small wideband speaker and obviously is going to be limited in SPL and bass performance and is a compromise in the treble and so should be seen as such. As it is even as a kit it is over priced and better options exist.

 

[Pops106]

Yes it will very likely sound good that way, but.... it was not sold to be used that way. Now Danny made a video using the same speaker + woofer basically admitting it is crap without it. That said... at around 4kHz distortion at 90dB also isn't exemplary either.

Its a small wideband speaker and obviously is going to be limited in SPL and bass performance and is a compromise in the treble and so should be seen as such. As it is even as a kit it is over priced and better options exist.

I saw the video as well, I think he briefly mentioned in the first video about crossing it with a sub but daft to not make a real point of it.

 

[Vacceo]

I'll cite two examples:
- GR Research LGK 2.0 thread.
- KEF LS60 Meta

You see lots not discussion. But it's obvious that nobody except the reviewer auditionned these speakers.

Why can't you just drive somewhere and audition these speakers?

Because sometimes you can't.

It's surely a cash grab. So the chances of sampling a speaker like this one someday is very slim (unless you buy a unit). There are certainly better speakers for the money. I know that I'll never have a chance to audition this LGK speaker and that makes me a little bit sad.

I'm in France and there are countless HiFi products over there. I'm fortunate that I can easily travel to showrooms and audition speakers. KEF is way overpriced where I live. The LS50 Meta is 1300€ per pair.

Lucky you. I am in the most depopulated region of Western Europe. There are no showrooms over here.

The reviewer of the LS60 (Darko in this case) will never listen to what I would. That'd why a Spinorama is dar better than his bullshit about Tom Waits

 

[gasolin75]

 

[garbz]

I feel like the audiophile community (especially ASR) loves to talk about Hi-Fi equipment without even experiencing it.

No, you think just because we can get insights from measurements that somehow our experiences are invalid. Hint: Pretty much everyone on this forum owns and experiences speakers.
You used the word personalised. You don't get more personalised than being able to understand a measurement, because precisely *no* reviewer is you, and precisely *no* reviewer knows your tastes and house. But if you understood what you were looking at you could get an idea of if something would suit your personal situtation.

You don't. That's fine. Listen to speakers the old fashioned way if that's your thing. That doesn't make what anyone else is doing invalid.

I agree with you, graphs and reviews are boring. Which is why the end goal of looking at graphs and reviews are sitting on top of some nice stands in my living room getting listened to.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Yes it will very likely sound good that way, but.... it was not sold to be used that way. Now Danny made a video using the same speaker + woofer basically admitting it is crap without it. That said... at around 4kHz distortion at 90dB also isn't exemplary either.

Its a small wideband speaker and obviously is going to be limited in SPL and bass performance and is a compromise in the treble and so should be seen as such. As it is even as a kit it is over priced and better options exist.

Yes, and that 4 kHz spike is 1% 3rd harmonic distortion. Agree if it were a bargain, you might look past it, but GR has these drivers custom made and Danny touts his design prowess too. Even if he could make up for his technical shortcomings with super hearing or something, he is undisciplined. The LGKs Amir tested could simply have been shipped with defective drivers, but he is so worried about being slighted by Amir, he has not taken time to consider root cause.

Amir both heard and demonstrated misbehavior by the LGK2 speakers at 86 dB. There are simply plenty of small speakers that perform better than the LGK2s and do not need a subwoofer as a crutch.

 

[JeffS7444]

I want to do Audiophile meetups. I'd love to have 6 people over to listen to an album and eat some pie. Call it tea time for nerds. That's what I want.

That sounds wonderful if your listening area is large enough to host a get-together.

In a science-minded community, it’s okay to question commonly-accepted beliefs, but if your supporting evidence is all anecdotal (I.e., “everyone in the room heard the same thing”), don’t expect your views to be accepted as anything more than personal preference!

And yes, it’s possible to believe the science and still enjoy tubes and vinyl, because this a hobby, and if the relentless pursuit of the highest quantifiable levels of performance doesn’t sound like fun to you, don’t do it. But personally, if I discovered a bad-but-amazing sound, I’d want to measure it, so I could recreate it as needed, and not worry that I would lose it forever due to a home remodeling, equipment change, etc.

 

[Rottmannash]

The explanations are thin, unless the product presents an annoying flaw. I view ASR more like a sorting hat. The panther grading system is just that.

The issue is that consumers cannot sample products easily before purchasing. They have to rely on "reviews" and "measurements".

I'd rather base a purchasing decision on scientific measurements from @amirm than a purely subjective review from Darko, even if he listens for months...

 

[Doodski]

I'd rather base a purchasing decision on scientific measurements from @amirm than a purely subjective review from Darko, even if he listens for months...

Darko is a doofuss and maybe even a twat. Sigh* he does have great video production though.

 

[dfuller]

There are simply plenty of small speakers that perform better than the LGK2s and do not need a subwoofer as a crutch.

And that's the crux of it, isn't it? For the same price as assembled, you can get Genelecs or Neumanns, which go louder, don't need an external amp(!), and sound much better.

For the same price as the kit, there are better kits from e.g. Parts Express or Madisound available, never mind all the active studio monitors that put them to shame.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

Anyone trying to sell snake oil as Danny does is a charlatan in my book. Simple as that.

 

[Doodski]

Anyone trying to sell snake oil as Danny does is a charlatan in my book. Simple as that.

Snakeyyyy... sigh*

 

[amirm]

As a subjectivist I seek to experience audio gear in person and form my own opinions. I prefer personanlized buying advice over recommendations based purely on 4 sets of measurements and a hastily done subjective listening test. Reviewers like Darko Audio spend months with a product before writing a review. ASR probably spends half a day reviewing a product.

It is an amazing thing how subjectivists invent this and that rule to defend their practices.

If you are going to a doctor because you have a cold, do you want him to render an opinion while you are his office or have it marinate for months?

How about if your car is broken? Between a mechanic that figures out what is wrong in half hour or one that wants months, which would you choose?

Remember, I am not trying to make a pretty infomercial video about a product. That takes a lot of time from scripting, to shooting many raw segments, to editing and getting sign off from the company. This is what Darko is doing and if I were doing that, it would also take me a long time.

Darko's job is also made much more complicate in that he lacks a compass to know which way to look. I have measurements telling where the potential areas are, allowing me to focus there with specific content, and powerful tools like equalization. He is shooting in the dark although seeing how he likes everything "for the price," I don't know why he would need much time to evaluate a component.

Remember, when reviewers were tested by Harman in controlled testing, their performance was quite poor compared to trained listeners. Watch this video of mine on that:

Jump to 30:00 if you want to see how poorly magazine reviewers did.

Bottom line? Watch these other videos as entertainment. If you want to know how something really performs, our approach is the right one.

 

[Chrispy]

Just how did Danny get a reputation without particular educational credentials in the field at least? What particularly got him on the board so to speak?