• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

GR Research Upgrade for Klipsch RP-600M Speaker (Video)

Chagall

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 9, 2020
Messages
95
Likes
256
Thank you @amirm for another informative video!

Thing I don't understand, please if you could elaborate a bit more.
18:56 Speaker can potentially distort, because it takes more power to reach the same SPL part?

But in both distortion graphs it's better (if we exclude resonance @ 96dB).

Does this happen when applying negative pre-amp for EQ or playing greater dynamic range music?
Is that the same thing (more amp power to reach the same level)?
I thought in those cases amp works harder because of negative pre-amp, but had no idea that speaker also could suffer...
 

iulianm

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
53
Likes
56
Location
Greater Seattle Area
Moe.
Danny doesn't like Amir at all :D

I see there's a challenge there to test the tube connectors on that speaker.
 
Last edited:

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
14,929
Likes
14,637
Location
Canada
Moe.
Danny doesn't like Amir at all :D (oups, not naming names, what he said in the video).
Danny is daily living on a shorter and shorter leash with all that is occurring with the snake oil he offers to the public and the calling it out that @amirm and the ASR peeps do. Of course Danny does not like that and the more he communicates his snake oil means and ways the deeper he is digging in for the long or short haul. It's a matter of time and his only loyal follower subjects will be the mentally disillusioned and the weak minded. Perhaps Danny is really gutsy in his beliefs or he is a delusional personality. His video today of the abusive label he designed for @amirm of, "Moe" was meant as a insult and the cocky final mentioning of his speaker connectors was more of his daring @amirm to try and interrupt his business plan of offering snake oil.
 

Easternlethal

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 13, 2021
Messages
62
Likes
98
There's not a lot of supporting material in his video but it sounds like he's saying that EQ alone doesn't fix phase issues (smearing?).

But I'm not sure how something like a crossover would cause an electrical signal to smear in the time domain.

Anyway I'm enjoying these back and forth vids. Highly entertaining. Amir pls do another one to address smearing.
 

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
14,929
Likes
14,637
Location
Canada
But I'm not sure how something like a crossover would cause an electrical signal to smear in the time domain.
With inductors and capacitors they have reactance. The reactance causes a time delay in the charging and discharging of these devices. The reactance can be calculated. In the case of a capacitor the charge rate/time is calculated by multiplying the circuit resistance by the capacitance in Farads. This results in a duration of time in seconds. The time duration is called 1 Tau. Then 5 Tau = the total time for a nearly full charge. For inductors the same Tau value applies but the measure is in Henries multiplied by the circuit resistance. The 5 Tau rule applies here too. The current and voltage go out of phase by up to 90 degrees and time delay occurs. That's as simplified a version as can exist.
 

dfuller

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
2,331
Likes
3,299
There's not a lot of supporting material in his video but it sounds like he's saying that EQ alone doesn't fix phase issues (smearing?).

But I'm not sure how something like a crossover would cause an electrical signal to smear in the time domain.

Anyway I'm enjoying these back and forth vids. Highly entertaining. Amir pls do another one to address smearing.
Are you familiar with how minimum phase filters work? They rotate phase just by nature of how they work, pass filters being the worst offenders.
 

Katji

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
3,001
Likes
2,234
Danny is daily living on a shorter and shorter leash with all that is occurring with the snake oil he offers to the public and the calling it out that @amirm and the ASR peeps do. Of course Danny does not like that and the more he communicates his snake oil means and ways the deeper he is digging in for the long or short haul. It's a matter of time and his only loyal follower subjects will be the mentally disillusioned and the weak minded. Perhaps Danny is really gutsy in his beliefs or he is a delusional personality. His video today of the abusive label he designed for @amirm of, "Moe" was meant as a insult and the cocky final mentioning of his speaker connectors was more of his daring @amirm to try and interrupt his business plan of offering snake oil.
ASR on Youtube is very powerful. We are only seeing the beginning of the outcomes. And the short basics videos are going to increase it. If it can somehow be extended to TikTok and Instagram...just imagine. Much bigger reach, extends to genZ. Get them while they're young, before common sense is polluted by too much of nonsense. Mother of all hi-fi snake-oil Disruptions.
 

Katji

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
3,001
Likes
2,234
Amir, I've been thinking about it for several days. Of course it would be difficult in that very short max.length but Instagram is used to direct people further, like maybe to Youtube. Even if it's only to further establish the brand, the concept.
Note that Youtube now has the Youtube Shorts - they saw how TikTok grew, and I'm sure they have seen Youtube rate of growth slower, they have Google analysis tools to show them.
 

Easternlethal

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 13, 2021
Messages
62
Likes
98
With inductors and capacitors they have reactance. The reactance causes a time delay in the charging and discharging of these devices. The reactance can be calculated. In the case of a capacitor the charge rate/time is calculated by multiplying the circuit resistance by the capacitance in Farads. This results in a duration of time in seconds. The time duration is called 1 Tau. Then 5 Tau = the total time for a nearly full charge. For inductors the same Tau value applies but the measure is in Henries multiplied by the circuit resistance. The 5 Tau rule applies here too. The current and voltage go out of phase by up to 90 degrees and time delay occurs. That's as simplified a version as can exist.
Yes but what he is implying is that different frequencies are being delayed differently so you get smearing.. at least that's what I think he's saying
 

Abe_W

Active Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
141
Likes
34
Location
United States
Danny is daily living on a shorter and shorter leash with all that is occurring with the snake oil he offers to the public and the calling it out that @amirm and the ASR peeps do. Of course Danny does not like that and the more he communicates his snake oil means and ways the deeper he is digging in for the long or short haul. It's a matter of time and his only loyal follower subjects will be the mentally disillusioned and the weak minded. Perhaps Danny is really gutsy in his beliefs or he is a delusional personality. His video today of the abusive label he designed for @amirm of, "Moe" was meant as a insult and the cocky final mentioning of his speaker connectors was more of his daring @amirm to try and interrupt his business plan of offering snake oil.
It's not an insult. In America, we like to shorten names a bit. Richard becomes Dick...William becomes Bill...Majidimeh. huh? what? Might as well be "Moe"....
 

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
14,929
Likes
14,637
Location
Canada
Yes but what he is implying is that different frequencies are being delayed differently so you get smearing.. at least that's what I think he's saying
Reactance and Tau values are frequency related as is shown in the capacitive and inductive reactance versus frequency formulas. The delay between the voltage and current delivery will cause power transfer issues to the voice coil assembly and that could as he stated cause, "Smearing." Whatever smearing is it could be this. V and I @ Fcutoff up to 90 degree phase relationships are so common that the smearing is a necessary evil per say and can only be minimalized by a active crossover system approach. I was reducing the reactance parameters to the most basic explanation without getting into Fourier Transform Theorem and complex numbers.
 
Last edited:

dfuller

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
2,331
Likes
3,299
Reactance and Tau values are frequency related as is shown in the capacitive and inductive reactance versus frequency formulas. The delay between the voltage and current delivery will cause power transfer issues to the voice coil assembly and that could as he stated cause, "Smearing." Whatever smearing is it could be this. V and I @ Fcutoff up to 90 degree phase relationships are so common that the smearing is a necessary evil per say and can only be minimalized by a active crossover system approach. I was reducing the reactance parameters to the most basic explanation without getting into Fourier Transform theorem and complex numbers.
Precisely, you can't easily compensate for phase rotation without big banks of op-amp all-pass filters (or DSP, but that's neither here nor there). It's very difficult to do in a passive filter network.
 

Easternlethal

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 13, 2021
Messages
62
Likes
98
But we're not talking about AC here right? Isn't this about speaker current? I can see how reactance can affect the amplitude but I still don't see how it can mess up their timing
 

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
14,929
Likes
14,637
Location
Canada
But we're not talking about AC here right?
This is 100% about AC and alternating voltage power transfer. It is explained mathematically in the complex number system which when used deals exclusively with instantaneous values of AC current and voltage whether leading or lagging each other.
Isn't this about speaker current?
It is about voltage and current power delivery to the voice coil which in itself has additional reactance and voltage and current phase relationships.
I can see how reactance can affect the amplitude but I still don't see how it can mess up their timing
When a capacitor charges there is a lag between the voltage and current due to the nature of filling the capacitor with electrons. The time it takes to charge is = ~5 Tau as I mentioned before. The energy is stored across the plates of the capacitor for discharge later.
When a inductor charges it builds up a electromagnetic field around it. This stores the energy for when it discharges and the EMF collapses and releases this energy. Again the charge time is ~5 tau as mentioned previously.
The old analogy of a water tank works with pressure and flow being voltage and current.
The leading or lagging current or voltage due to the charging of the capacitor or inductor can be up to 90 degrees of the waveform. So it can be calculated and the power transfer can be determined by calculations down to as much time and power resolution as the numbers permit.
 

Katji

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
3,001
Likes
2,234
His video today of the abusive label he designed for @amirm of, "Moe" was meant as a insult
[?] Is it related to the embedded Youtube image? (The Danny GR video.) The face in the image is vaguely familiar - like an actor? ...but that's it. If it becomes apparent in the video, well, spare me, I'm not going to watch it. I just came back from reading the entire bio thread.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
39,501
Likes
180,000
Location
Seattle Area
Amir, I've been thinking about it for several days. Of course it would be difficult in that very short max.length but Instagram is used to direct people further, like maybe to Youtube. Even if it's only to further establish the brand, the concept.
Note that Youtube now has the Youtube Shorts - they saw how TikTok grew, and I'm sure they have seen Youtube rate of growth slower, they have Google analysis tools to show them.
I have been thinking about Google shorts as I do watch them to pass the time. I may try to create some in that format. Will have to think about what can be explained so quickly.
 

Rick Sykora

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
Messages
2,423
Likes
4,463
Location
Stow, Ohio USA
Moe.
Danny doesn't like Amir at all :D

I see there's a challenge there to test the tube connectors on that speaker.

Danny threw down the trolling accusations in his previous video. Seems he should look in the mirror. If there is a “teachable moment” in this video, it should be about knowing how to emphasize the positive. ;)
 

Eddy

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2021
Messages
32
Likes
26
In my view, the way in which Danny critiques Amir's video is silly ("Moe", not mentioning ASR, etc.). But isn't he right about the factual point that EQ doesn't correct the time alignment of woofer and tweeter? (See ~4min in Danny's video) In my experience, the phase behavior of the speakers is incredibly important for imaging. I'm using Dirac Live which has corrected the phasing and brought a huge gain to the sound.
 
Top Bottom