GR Research Speaker Upgrade Review (Sierra-2EX V2)

[xray]

Hey now, that's a respectable profession full of people who know what they're doing.

Absolutely, if they stick to their lane.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I think you are giving him too much credit comparing him to a surgeon. Maybe a butcher with a cleaver is closer to the truth.

a butcher with a spork

 

[Vergiliusma]

I think you are giving him too much credit comparing him to a surgeon. Maybe a butcher with a cleaver is closer to the truth

Perhaps.

There were some snarky comments in his YouTube video to which he understandably didn't respond.

He called it a tech talk video, so I wanted to address one of his "tech" topics in the comments section. Particularly, his assertion that Amir and Dave were missing the boat because they weren't looking for resonances in the time domain with a CSD (I'm paraphrasing, but I think he said something like this is basic level stuff in the video). I'm generally nice anyways, but I wanted him to respond to my comment, which he did, and then I had another reply then crickets.

It was obvious he had a grave misunderstanding of the CTA-2034 and the Klippel robot.

Thought experiment:
An anechoic chamber is a tool.
Which problem is it better suited to solve, the problem of the loudspeaker, or the problem of the room?

The loudspeakers, An (without) echoic (echoes or reverberation).

 

[RexrothPigeon]

There were some snarky comments in his YouTube video to which he understandably didn't respond.

he usually deletes any and all criticism, from mild to deserved.

 

[Gary_G]

Hey now, that's a respectable profession full of people who know what they're doing.

These guys would like a word !

 

[RickS]

Moved some posts as some content was drifting off topic and gave them a more appropriate home.

Please try to stay more on topic. Thanks!

 

[Head_Unit]

like giving an Olympic marathoner to a quack doctor to "improve" by implanting them with a baboon heart.

OMG laughing so hard...

 

[DSJR]

The way speakers sound finally, is up to the designer or design team opinion really. The Dynaudio facility was mentioned and a few years ago, it was regarded as pretty advanced, yet their speakers range from cheaper warmer toned models to ice-cold-balance 'HiFi' types with tech stories to tell, the cold tones of the Confidence models I've heard meaning for 'extra detail' I'd suggest. I'd respectfully suggest the test system they have does a good job, but the balance as signed off, is very much a subjective decision.

I do have a downer on many third parties who honestly believe they're 'improving' an existing design. One or two here in the UK genuinely refurbish and try to modernise vintage models and others simply ruin a classic model (the Russ Andrews 'upgrade' on the polite-toned classic Spendor BC1, by removing the crossover, running the bass driver wide open and a cap each on the narrow-band tweeter and 'super tweeter' (the Hf1300/Coles pairing was popular in many models). Sure the sound is more exciting, but neutral it certainly aint!!! HiFi News did a full tech review on the BC1 back when it was a serious magazine and the raw driver responses were something to behold

 

[R-Carpenter]

this is sadly standard fare in American economics the last few decades.... "the free market" goes unchecked in predatory practices ..I see this in home improvement ads, things like large air conditioning companies declaring that ac units "life expectancy" is 10 -12 years .. the truth is all the parts can be replaced as long as they exist .. if you can diy you could make a unit last decades and work well ... but that cuts into profits ... so units have expected lifespans and very inflated service prices (labor) to encourage replacement... Danny follows the same business model , preying on the audio illiterate ...

Well, he does and he doesn't. After all, he gives his customers a bunch of parts and expect them to DIY the modifications. At list there's some salvation in that. Anyone operating soldering iron is already a step ahead of the most.

But the marketing model is fairly standard. Not just in US.

I did DIY installed my heat pump system and fixed my AC to the point of dealing with refrigerant. A lot of people don't want to do any of this work and kids do not learn trade even at a DIY level. It's sad.

 

[R-Carpenter]

Thanks, it is rather dismal...

View attachment 533113

Major downgrade from the day when he at least attempted to have anechoic space. Lack of a mic boom almost certainly means some stand reflections. Surprised he can get his gate to 4 msec even. Off axis measurements will be affected by base that extends too far. Clearly shows where his priorities are versus his vast space devoted to speaker demonstration.

There's nothing wrong with the set up and you can design and build fantastic speaker. If I were to publish the data and wanted to make sure that it cannot be jeopardized, I'd pay someone with Klippel to verify. It beats spending 150k.

 

[RickS]

There's nothing wrong with the set up and you can design and build fantastic speaker. If I were to publish the data and wanted to make sure that it cannot be jeopardized, I'd pay someone with Klippel to verify. It beats spending 150k.

What is the basis for your claim? If you are disciplined, you do not need a Klippel. Many DiYers (along with yours truly) do spins that are much higher quality than Danny's work. For the Directiva project, we did have Amir's Klippel support, but it was mainly as a validation step. Danny's results based on his measurements are hit or miss. Amir has already articulated some of his major process flaws. Would be interesting to know whether his results are poor application of measurement gear or something else.

 

[R-Carpenter]

What is the basis for your claim? If you are disciplined, you do not need a Klippel. Many DiYers (along with yours truly) do spins that are much higher quality than Danny's work. For the Directiva project, we did have Amir's Klippel support, but it was mainly as a validation step. Danny's results based on his measurements are hit or miss. Amir has already articulated some of his major process flaws. Would be interesting to know whether his results are poor application of measurement gear or something else.

His results are culmination of laziness, disrespect for his customers and approach to marketing the product.
The set up is sufficient to design a nice speaker system. If you are experienced DIYer, given CLIO, small room and some sort of crossover CAD, I am sure you could create something admirable. Can you?
No, you do not need Klippel for that.

 

[Buckchester]

I think you are giving him too much credit comparing him to a surgeon. Maybe a butcher with a cleaver is closer to the truth.

Or a used car salesman from a trailer park.

 

[PristineSound]

His results are culmination of laziness, disrespect for his customers and approach to marketing the product.
The set up is sufficient to design a nice speaker system. If you are experienced DIYer, given CLIO, small room and some sort of crossover CAD, I am sure you could create something admirable. Can you?
No, you do not need Klippel for that.

Out of curiosity, how many excellent speakers, not respectable, but excellent speakers that are designed without either the use of an anechoic chamber or a Klippel NFS?

I don't know, but would be very interested to know.

 

[R-Carpenter]

Out of curiosity, how many excellent speakers, not respectable, but excellent speakers that are designed without either the use of an anechoic chamber or a Klippel NFS?

I don't know, but would be very interested to know.

I don't know what you mean by excellent but to me it's the speaker system that can reproduce the recording at similar to live performance level and build a life-like presentation. Basically, the speaker is excellent if it makes you believe you are there. I like Jazz and classical music so for me it is very important how well dynamics are handled. Is crescendo believable.. etc
That's just me. Your own requirements for excellence may be different and may relate to different type of music genre.

As many stated, anechoic chamber is not something that was readily available to most manufacturers. Then I had a shop in Brooklyn Navy Yard, NAVY had an anechoic chamber there but you couldn't get access to it.
Klippel became available from 2010 or round about there. So if we look back before 2010, speakers that always impressed me were large Legacies, ProAc 4, some of older 3-way Sonus Faber speakers. I've heard large DIY horn systems that were insanely life like. Quite a few DIY speakers also very impressive. So, I don't know how many but there were plenty.
I am actually getting ready to start designing and building 3-way similar to ProAc4 for myself. I liked that speaker so much, I want to do my own interpretation and luckily ATC mids dropped from the sky, thanks to a good Samaritan.

 

[Power Pop 23]

Out of curiosity, how many excellent speakers, not respectable, but excellent speakers that are designed without either the use of an anechoic chamber or a Klippel NFS?

I don't know, but would be very interested to know.

I don't know how many.....

The 'Mechano23' DIY loudspeaker from member @XMechanik - as measured by Amir - may qualify

Mechano23 Open-source DIY Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests and detailed measurements of the "Mechano23" open-source DIY speaker. A pair was kindly sent to me by the member. You can read more about it here. Baltic birch cabinet seems quite solid and well above what you get commercially. I was surprised to see a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Vergiliusma]

Out of curiosity, how many excellent speakers, not respectable, but excellent speakers that are designed without either the use of an anechoic chamber or a Klippel NFS?

Dennis Murphy of Philharmonic Audio uses quasi-anechoic measurements, and his designs are well-regarded. He did submit a couple for Klippel measurement.

 

[PristineSound]

I don't know what you mean by excellent but to me it's the speaker system that can reproduce the recording at similar to live performance level and build a life-like presentation. Basically, the speaker is excellent if it makes you believe you are there.

Whao, hold on, that is a just too much subjective nonsense speak.

This is ASR, excellent speakers are defined by science and it is undisputably flat frequency response, controlled directivity, low distortion, absence of resonance, bass extension, SPL. Some people will argue sensitivity as, but I couldn't care less about sensitivity.

If you are going to go by "life-like presentation" that is uber subjective and anyone can get a free pass to argue any crap shit speaker to be an "excellent" speaker.

And I need source on the claim that "As many stated, anechoic chamber is not something that was readily available to most manufacturers." Because I know that anechoic chambers wasn't an uncommon thing in the 70's, 80's and it was absolutely accessible to major institutions who had the money to rent it.

 

[PristineSound]

Dennis Murphy of Philharmonic Audio uses quasi-anechoic measurements, and his designs are well-regarded. He did submit a couple for Klippel measurement.

Dennis does great work.

I like Philharmonic, excellent speakers. But is it confirmed that he does not use an anechoic chamber nor an NFS in any stage of the design?

 

[R-Carpenter]

Whao, hold on, that is a just too much subjective nonsense speak.

This is ASR, excellent speakers are defined by science and it is undisputably flat frequency response, controlled directivity, low distortion, absence of resonance, bass extension, SPL. Some people will argue sensitivity as, but I couldn't care less about sensitivity.

If you are going to go by "life-like presentation" that is uber subjective and anyone can get a free pass to argue any crap shit speaker to be an "excellent" speaker.

And I need source on the claim that "As many stated, anechoic chamber is not something that was readily available to most manufacturers." Because I know that anechoic chambers wasn't an uncommon thing in the 70's, 80's and it was absolutely accessible to major institutions who had the money to rent it.

By your own standard, if the speaker is not measured using Klippel or brought in anechoic chamber, it is not excellent or substandard. But Klippel wasn't there before 2010 and anechoic chambers are not dime a dozen.
"controlled directivity, low distortion, absence of resonance, bass extension, SPL" All these parameters can be measured using gated MLS. Usually, speakers with flat on axis response, smooth falling off axis response, low distortion at high SPL capabilities (high performance driver units) and good low end extension tend to sound very good or excellent.
Do you think your two way design can sound as life-like as ProAc 4? I am not a fanboy of ProAc btw. It's just one of the designs that I liked.