GR Research Speaker Upgrade Review (Sierra-2EX V2)

[suur13]

Raal themselves said that crossing the tweeter this low is a really bad idea.

Sorry guys, n00b here, I do not get it, if I look original post of Amir, tweeter crossover point is the same and slope is the same as original, or ? Right at 3,1kHz where Raal recommends it to be in 64-10 spec. What I'm missing here ?

 

[Geert]

Sorry guys, n00b here, I do not get it, if I look original post of Amir, tweeter crossover point is the same and slope is the same as original, or ? Right at 3,1kHz where Raal recommends it to be in 64-10 spec. What I'm missing here ?

let's look at the measurements as provided by GR Research. Note that he made two mods. The version I have is I guess can be called "V1." After he heard objections from Dave, Danny redid the mod and provided the following measurements:

 

[Maxim-ICOM]

Nope, not even close to enough to design a speaker right. Most speaker radiate wider than 45 and might not show DI issues until further out.

Here's 45 on a speaker I made. Ignore bass, measured outside with lots of traffic.

View attachment 529843

Same speaker, but at 90 degrees.

View attachment 529844



If you're trying to design around 45 degrees max dispersion, well I certainly wish you the best of luck. You will need it.

Sorry, but bloody jelly on top image or orange carrot on lower image does not show how good or bad speaker is.
If you set same scale on upper image you will get same "carrot". But still it will be hard to judge if it is good or bad.

Simple 3 lines - on-axis 0 and 30 / 45 will give the sufficient info, each line will tell what speaker will radiate at that angle, where are dips/holes, how big they are, what is their nature, etc.

Sorry but my brain cannot filter truth from bloody jellies.

And speaker design is not about "designing at max dispersion" only.

 

[Rick63]

I was also VERY close to buy an Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX, the Bamboo cabinets are soooooo beautiful!!!

Yes they are, and they sound as beautiful as they look. I'm in love with mine!

 

[thegeton]

Or we just have some GR Research fans/sock puppets on here.

GR Research sock puppets!?

I can't stop laughing!

 

[CB89]

@Rick63 Nice enclosure - it looks really good.

 

[dfuller]

Sorry guys, n00b here, I do not get it, if I look original post of Amir, crossover point is the same and slope is the same, or ? Right at 3,1kHz where Raal recommends it to be in 64-10 spec. What I'm missing here ?

This is the first version of the mod, not the second - the first version dropped the Fc from the ~3.2khz to ~2.5khz or lower. If there is one thing that is universally true about ribbon tweeters it's that they really don't like being crossed at low (or honestly even moderate) frequencies. 3khz is about as low as you can reasonably expect.

GR Research sock puppets!?

I can't stop laughing!

You'd be surprised. I've seen a lot of them.

 

[DatSpeakerTho]

Sorry, but bloody jelly on top image or orange carrot on lower image does not show how good or bad speaker is.

Yeah that's why I design around CTA2034. Is this enough info? (this is a bad xover, early iteration, impedance is not good, don't have access to current project that is on different computer).

If you set same scale on upper image you will get same "carrot". But still it will be hard to judge if it is good or bad.

What? Scale? There is no scale, it's called windowing. No duh they would look the same, it's the same speaker...

Sorry but my brain cannot filter truth from bloody jellies.

Yeah, that's the entire point I was making, thank you for proving it.

 

[tineared]

It sometimes seems that way, but I think we are in a bubble of extremely high audio knowledge here, compared to the general public. It's easy to forget that otherwise smart and reasonable people can easily be taken in by marketing nonsense and snake oil when they haven't actually been educated in how audio works.

Even understanding that a speaker should have a "flat" response and knowing what that means puts you ahead of at least 95% of people walking around in the world, frankly it's probably closer to 99%. Understanding the nuances of flatness and how it's really meant to be implemented definitely puts you beyond 99%.

If you understand why smooth off-axis response is important and something about how it works, there is probably less difference between you and Andrew Jones than there is between you and the average consumer.

IMO this is partly because this just doesn't come up in daily life or normal schooling, partly because the industry doesn't do much proper education of its own.

Someone buying stuff from Danny would already have to have a relatively high level of knowledge about audio to even grasp the concept of an upgraded crossover. Unfortunately, they have been deliberately mis- and under-informed about those topics by... folks like Danny.

e: @Spkrdctr pretty much said the same in an earlier comment. It's too much to ask for the average person to take a serious interest in audio science. It is NOT too much to ask for professionals in the industry to do that, and it would greatly benefit the consumer. That's why Danny's approach is objectionable.

I completely agree that most folks don't understand the physical properties of good sounding speakers. That's why it is incumbent on them to verify the information they are receiving from the furry-faced huckster on YouTube, just as it should be incumbent on TV viewers to verify the efficacy of the "miracle pain killer" advertised on infomercials with their doctors before ordering

 

[kemmler3D]

I completely agree that most folks don't understand the physical properties of good sounding speakers. That's why it is incumbent on them to verify the information they are receiving from the furry-faced huckster on YouTube, just as it should be incumbent on TV viewers to verify the efficacy of the "miracle pain killer" advertised on infomercials with their doctors before ordering

People ought to know better than to blindly buy into exciting marketing claims everywhere and always, yes. But as we see everywhere and always, vain hope beats skeptical inquiry 9 times out of 10. Sigh...

 

[courtesy]

The only reason Danny won't make "upgrade" kits for AsciLab is because Amir sells them.

In all reality, the Ascend may well be preferred by more listeners. Wider dispersion leads to a sense of envelopment. Both are great speakers for sure but I wouldn't use one metric to proclaim one superior. There are 2 brands of speakers I really want to own right now: Ascend and AsciLab. Instead I have ADAM and Roland, both of which I love. My ADAMs have been with me well over a decade.

I own the LX and just recently got to listen to the AsciiLab C6B. Among other differences, you are right about the envelopment/soundstage.

 

[courtesy]

Yes, he had a cheaper speaker he designed for AV123 about 20 years ago that was quite good. He now sells the same model for over $1,000. For $250, the speaker was good—but not for over $1,000. I actually won the speaker in a raffle at the Steve Hoffman website 20 years ago and subsequently gave it to my brother.

Yes, Danny was also in business with the now infamous AV123 and Mark Schifter.

Indictment: Longmont man scammed 707 people in charity fraud

Indictment: Longmont man scammed 707 people in charity fraud

www.denverpost.com

I was involved in a comparison with the speaker model you mention. Two owners of that speaker brought each of their speakers to the comparison, there were other brands/models too. The most interesting thing is those two sets of the speakers from AV123...same model, sounded very different from each other.

 

[totti1965]

Yes they are, and they sound as beautiful as they look. I'm in love with mine!



View attachment 529857

Nice!

Here is my Ascend Acoustics alternative for the self-builders:
The HobbyHifi WaveMon 182/22: 7 1/8 inch woofer, over 26 lbs heavy and 42 cm x 23 cm x 36 cm large!
Anton from Moscow has build them also and has made an impressive 1minute (and also a 3 minute) YouTube sound clip:

I also added some of the MLSSA measurements:

 

[totti1965]

Every one of those mods comes with "upgrades in parts." Upgrades that he can't show objectively to make a difference. Nor does he do any listening tests of the mod to confirm the same. According to him, most people purchase the mod with said upgrades. In this specific upgrade, he has included such parts and hence the reason the cost has ballooned to over $500.

He is also dismissive of EQ performing similar to his mod for nothing in most cases, saying it does something bad to sound.

And while you are on his site, you may be tempted to buy his power cables, etc.

He now blocks me from purchasing his products. He cancelled the last power tweak he is selling. And of course doesn't send me any review samples. His excuse? He wants me to listen, in some special room, with ears that I apparently don't have. When I say I want to measure them, he says he has already done that. As you see here, clearly he has not.

All of this comes with a heap of attitude. And as noted, heavy handed censorship. I dared to post in Audiocircle but the mods there give him ultimate power and admonish people saying negative things. Comments in Youtube are likewise deleted.

These things go against what we are about here. So please excuse the membership for venting. They have ample reason to do so.

Perhaps his new, quite very interesting speaker, Allie, from the NRD series,
should be acquired through a straw man
in order to carry out some Klippel measurements.

Ron from the New Record Day YouTube channel wrote about Maddie and Allie:
„Both models use a small wide-band driver to handle most of the critical vocal range, combined with a carefully integrated rear-firing ambience driver designed to introduce subtle spatial cues into the listening room. The goal is a presentation that feels coherent, natural, and connected to the space around you.“

For me it seems to be a very interesting approach: Comparable with the Cardioid Philosophie in which it is the bass region which has a dipole characteristic to avoid room modes and connect better with room acoustics.

 

[Rick63]

Posting this before it gets deleted:

Login

Login

www.audiocircle.com

 

[PristineSound]

Posting this before it gets deleted:

Login

Login

www.audiocircle.com

View attachment 529978

Did you guys read that right? My man is comparing his measurements with JA and how it "matches exactly" as if that is something to hang his hat on.

Gosh, this is some sort of court jester show.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

I've never liked two-way speakers. All the speakers I have ever built have been 3 drive units minimum.
A few years ago i switched to using an active subwoofer for the bass, that's a big improvement,
then i don't need a crossover for the midrange driver, and use small second order filter on the tweeter - fantastic sound. Drivers without crossover are excellent.
They take away a lot of the expense and problems associated with speaker design, as this review has made evident

What drive is it using? And how do you have them configured? Sounds interesting.

 

[dfuller]

Did you guys read that right? My man is comparing his measurements with JA and how it "matches exactly" as if that is something to hang his hat on.

Ah yes, JA's well known (by JA, no less!) testing that is... flawed.

It's not that the Clio is bad. It's that he has not a single god damn clue how to use it.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Vladimir, I measured many speakers in many rooms. Have not counted, but looks over hundred of different brands and models from Kef, Audes, Estelon, Sonus Faber, Sonos, B&W, Focal, Jamo, Klipsch, Perlisten, Piega, Q, Canton, DefTech, Bose, Amphion, Linn, Magnat, Yamaha, custom DIY, etc ....

It is not possible to suppress room modes in a normal living room so much, to get measurements close to anechoic, sorry.
I measured over 30 different brand and models of loudspeakers in over 30 different rooms and no room was so overdamped, to "give you almost same as gated measurements (close to anechoic)".

I've seen many rooms including .... empty barn-studio style with concrete wall and ceiling with no rugs with floor to ceiling windows with absolute echo.

We are discussing hi-fi loudspeakers, which should be used in a normal rooms. Even barn-studios have people and upholstery furniture (sofas, beds, armchairs) inside, which absorbs sound waves, so absolutely no possibility to "room will gain over speaker response few dB.", sorry.

About Klippel NFS possibility to measure down to 20 Hz:

Neither Clio nor Klipped can do it. But both have nice math what can build close to realistic estimates based on near+far field measurements.

On the contrary, Klippel NFS can measure accurately below 20 Hz.
From the Klippel NFS manual:
https://www.klippel.de/manuals/directivity-roomcorrection/nfs/nfs.html

"Number of Points
Dependent from the device under test the following number of measurement points is recommended:

Subwoofer
Working Range: 10 Hz – 1 kHz
Number of Points: 300

Full range Speaker
Working Range: 20 Hz – 10 kHz
Number of Points: 500

2 way Speaker
Working Range: 20 Hz – 20 kHz
Number of Points: 500 - 1000"

With CLIO it is possible to measure in room loudspeakers down to 20 Hz with nearfield technique, but not accurately low-frequency horns. Such loudspeakers must be measured outside, with ground-plane technique.

Indeed true anechoic measurements with Clio or Klippel even in this room https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/101765-largest-anechoic-test-chamber will have compromises for 20Hz

Wrong. That chamber is anechoic for Radio Frequency electromagnetic waves, not for sound waves.

 

[Buckchester]

Posting this before it gets deleted:

Login

Login

www.audiocircle.com

View attachment 529978

Geez, after reading through the comments over there I have a sudden urge to bang my head into a wall.