• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

GR Research Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade Review (speaker)

Rate this speaker mod:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 10 5.2%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 40 20.9%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther

    Votes: 118 61.8%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 23 12.0%

  • Total voters
    191

tomtoo

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
3,607
Likes
4,514
Location
Germany
The ‘house’ corrected the frequency response with version 2.0 of this speaker. Something to think about.


Useless discussions, this speaker reacts good to eq. Get a way to peq and have fun with them.
 

tomtoo

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
3,607
Likes
4,514
Location
Germany
No it’s not a useless discussion. There is no reason to buy this speaker and mod when version 2.0 is great out of the box.

Sure it makes no sense to buy the old speaker and mod. Couse the mod makes no sense if you can eq. Buying the old speaker cheap and eq makes absolutly sense.
 

tential

Active Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2018
Messages
187
Likes
133
Ya... square wave clipping from overdriving under powered amps is a driver killer. Hehe
I used mine at my fraternity house, so ya... I was pushing as hard as I could. But the amp fixed everything. Definitely wish I had known though about high efficiency designs, as a behringer powered speaker still would have done as well as the polk speakers I had, with far more output.
 

kokakolia

Active Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2022
Messages
117
Likes
72
The ‘house’ corrected the frequency response with version 2.0 of this speaker. Something to think about.
This statement is so moot. I'll bet that a lot of folks will prefer the RP600M gen 1 over gen 2. No graphics or 'science' will explain that. Incoming threads: "Klipsch doesn't sound the same anymore".
 

USER

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 30, 2019
Messages
886
Likes
1,408
This statement is so moot. I'll bet that a lot of folks will prefer the RP600M gen 1 over gen 2. No graphics or 'science' will explain that. Incoming threads: "Klipsch doesn't sound the same anymore".
Like you demonstrate, anyone will say anything. So what? This type of noise is the curse of the internet. If you allow me to attempt to bring some actual research into this: Harman/Revel is the only major speaker company that publicly discloses that it conducts blind listening tests as part of their speaker development. They don't release a new speaker unless it bests the competition in such tests. They have done so much work to develop their preference curve and thus they can say that their Harman curve can be expected to be preferred curve by the general population given proper blind testing and comparison. Of course some will prefer something else and further research can change its status--science is not static--but unless you can demonstrate any kind of intellectual endeavor to suggest otherwise you are not saying anything. So, yes, "science" can explain this better than a say-anything youtuber. If we can say that the new model curve is closer to the Harman curve we are allowed to say and can expect that it will be preferred. And think twice about what that statement means--it doesn't mean everyone, but it does mean that it is not an empty statement. People here, thankfully, are not talking out of their butts. The research is well-known.

Edit: of course there are other variables at play when it comes to speakers (the preference rating list is not a part of the site, after all), but here the big difference between the models is the curve.
 
Last edited:

Talisman

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 27, 2022
Messages
897
Likes
2,546
Location
Milano Italy
The ‘house’ corrected the frequency response with version 2.0 of this speaker. Something to think about.
Right, then you can buy 2.0
Like it or not, whether it makes sense or not, that frequency response can't be a mistake, not even the most amateur of builders would. It was wanted that way.
 

Feyire

Active Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2019
Messages
272
Likes
314
Location
Netherlands
… apparently steel nuts for the binding posts would negatively affect the sound :facepalm:
If the steel nut is in direct contact with the conductor in the binding post (i.e. in the signal path), then it will negatively affect the sound.

Any amplified audio signal passing through a ferromagnetic material will be affected by hysteresis distortion, and this distortion worsens with increasing frequency. This is the reason why you get can get away with using iron core inductors on the crossover for woofers, but you won't see any competent designer putting an iron-core inductor on a tweeter crossover.
 

dfuller

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
3,337
Likes
5,053
If the steel nut is in direct contact with the conductor in the binding post (i.e. in the signal path), then it will negatively affect the sound.

Any amplified audio signal passing through a ferromagnetic material will be affected by hysteresis distortion, and this distortion worsens with increasing frequency. This is the reason why you get can get away with using iron core inductors on the crossover for woofers, but you won't see any competent designer putting an iron-core inductor on a tweeter crossover.
Except no, no it doesn't.

An inductor is another argument entirely, there you end up with core saturation and all kinds of wacky fun stuff.
 

voodooless

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
10,226
Likes
17,803
Location
Netherlands
If the steel nut is in direct contact with the conductor in the binding post (i.e. in the signal path), then it will negatively affect the sound.
Somebody tested that with some iron nails:


Did basically nothing.
Any amplified audio signal passing through a ferromagnetic material will be affected by hysteresis distortion, and this distortion worsens with increasing frequency. This is the reason why you get can get away with using iron core inductors on the crossover for woofers, but you won't see any competent designer putting an iron-core inductor on a tweeter crossover.
Well, you don’t see them because the values are generally low enough not to need an iron core to make a cheap enough coil. Obviously the lower distortion is an added plus.
 

Bruce Morgen

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
865
Likes
1,239
If the steel nut is in direct contact with the conductor in the binding post (i.e. in the signal path), then it will negatively affect the sound.

Any amplified audio signal passing through a ferromagnetic material will be affected by hysteresis distortion, and this distortion worsens with increasing frequency. This is the reason why you get can get away with using iron core inductors on the crossover for woofers, but you won't see any competent designer putting an iron-core inductor on a tweeter crossover.

You've got two (possible) issues mixed up. As you pointed out, "hysteresis distortion" is frequency dependent -- what you left out is the fact that at the relatively low frequencies and impedances involved in an amp-to-speaker circuit and the tiny mass of a steel binding post nut, that effect is so minuscule as to be irrelevant. Now, in a cored inductor, the ferromagnetic mass is generally not "in the signal path" (i.e. electrically connected to the rest of the circuit) per se -- and the reason we don't usually see cored inductors on the tweeter side of a crossover is not principally to avoid hysteresis distortion, but rather a simple practicality: because of the low inductances required for that part of the circuitry, we can use air core inductors without the size of those components getting out of hand like they would given the much higher inductance(s) required on the woofer side, where the effect of hysteresis may well be measurable, if unlikely to be audible.

A use case where hysteresis distortion is relevant and sometimes audible is in the inductors used in the output circuits of Class D amplifiers, where the inductor has to pass the entire audio spectrum rather than the few lower octaves involved in driving a woofer or subwoofer. Bruno's paper on the phenomenon is fascinating: This Thing We Have About Hysteresis Distortion
 

tw 2022

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 11, 2022
Messages
878
Likes
742
Like you demonstrate, anyone will say anything. So what? This type of noise is the curse of the internet. If you allow me to attempt to bring some actual research into this: Harman/Revel is the only major speaker company that publicly discloses that it conducts blind listening tests as part of their speaker development
This needs to be included..who decides what the competition is?...I'm actually *not* questioning the legitimacy , but it's a factor as to who is viewed as the competition.. Do the bean counters decide what the competition is, or do audiophiles, or speaker makers??.. It's a variable....
 

Chrispy

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
7,751
Likes
5,910
Location
PNW
I imagine this is aimed at people who already bought the speaker, not at people in the market for a new pair of speakers.
I'd hate to think I'm so frozen by a purchase of a Klipsch speaker where I think the hopeful alternative is to modify it....just never been that much of a Klipsch fan either. Some of their old legacy giant corner speakers were interesting but not interesting enough to ever want to buy otoh....
 

USER

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 30, 2019
Messages
886
Likes
1,408
This needs to be included..who decides what the competition is?...I'm actually *not* questioning the legitimacy , but it's a factor as to who is viewed as the competition.. Do the bean counters decide what the competition is, or do audiophiles, or speaker makers??.. It's a variable....
There is a lot of info strewn about on this site: research paper links, power point presentations, write-ups by blind test participants. If I recall correctly Magico speakers were included at some point. I think their old list of best speakers measured by them is also available (look for references to the Infinity IL60). Look for these if you are interested or even contact Harman if you'd like. But note that since this older research is becoming more well-known and is being used more and more by other companies, Harman is not making current research public anymore.
 

kokakolia

Active Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2022
Messages
117
Likes
72
Like you demonstrate, anyone will say anything. So what? This type of noise is the curse of the internet. If you allow me to attempt to bring some actual research into this: Harman/Revel is the only major speaker company that publicly discloses that it conducts blind listening tests as part of their speaker development. They don't release a new speaker unless it bests the competition in such tests. They have done so much work to develop their preference curve and thus they can say that their Harman curve can be expected to be preferred curve by the general population given proper blind testing and comparison. Of course some will prefer something else and further research can change its status--science is not static--but unless you can demonstrate any kind of intellectual endeavor to suggest otherwise you are not saying anything. So, yes, "science" can explain this better than a say-anything youtuber. If we can say that the new model curve is closer to the Harman curve we are allowed to say and can expect that it will be preferred. And think twice about what that statement means--it doesn't mean everyone, but it does mean that it is not an empty statement. People here, thankfully, are not talking out of their butts. The research is well-known.

Edit: of course there are other variables at play when it comes to speakers (the preference rating list is not a part of the site, after all), but here the big difference between the models is the curve.
I polluted other ASR threads in the past with this debate over objectivity'. You represent the ASR mindset of imposing a particular sound profile (typically harman curve) by force. Any deviation from the 'ideal curve' is heresy on ASR. This leads to the obsession with measurements and ranking speakers based on that.

I am not seeking to prove anything. What do you say to the guy who prefers the RP600M over the KEF LS50?

I say that the ideal curve is like an average curve based on a huge sample size. But it's evident that a lot of people (including myself) don't fit on that curve. Key words: harman curve is expected to be preferred. The opposite is also true, but with a lesser probability.

Ultimately, like-minded people will group together into clans. Please accept that there are Klipsch fans out there and that it is so futile to argue that a particular product is overrated based on A + B + C "harman curve", "science" yadi yada. You could just point out the flaws and conclude with a recommendation or score.
 

Wseaton

Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2021
Messages
41
Likes
60
I have a lot of friends with various Klipsch and none of them are neutral. Some are pretty bad. Some are tolerable. Higher end Klipsch I sold 20years ago were far superior.

What nobody is discussing is that who says all speakers on this line are the same. Klipsch may have originally designed a very neutral speaker, but due to production changes or cost cutting a different crossover was used. So, Danny will be selling fix it kits for speakers that might not have the same problem.

In any respect I can get a pair of JBL studios for the price of the fix it kit and they are radically superior to my ears at least.

Kudos for Amir for doing this test. I still want a test of Danny's tinker toy cable elevators
 

Wseaton

Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2021
Messages
41
Likes
60
I polluted other ASR threads in the past with this debate over objectivity'. You represent the ASR mindset of imposing a particular sound profile (typically harman curve) by force. Any deviation from the 'ideal curve' is heresy on ASR. This leads to the obsession with measurements and ranking speakers based on that.

I am not seeking to prove anything. What do you say to the guy who prefers the RP600M over the KEF LS50?

I say that the ideal curve is like an average curve based on a huge sample size. But it's evident that a lot of people (including myself) don't fit on that curve. Key words: harman curve is expected to be preferred. The opposite is also true, but with a lesser probability.

Ultimately, like-minded people will group together into clans. Please accept that there are Klipsch fans out there and that it is so futile to argue that a particular product is overrated based on A + B + C "harman curve", "science" yadi yada. You could just point out the flaws and conclude with a recommendation or score.
Why are you yacking about a Harman curve when the speaker here had a severe crossover design defect? What Curve? It was a black hole. It may not even have been intentional. Just lazy manufacturing.

Who cares about the guy who loves his un modded 600Ms. He also probably likes Mich Ultra and thought his previousc Sears SoundDesign towers were the shiz.

All this proves are passive speakers are obsolete. Archaic is a better word.
 

USER

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 30, 2019
Messages
886
Likes
1,408
What do you say to the guy who prefers the RP600M over the KEF LS50?
I don't mean to sound rude, but maybe try to listen to a speaker that is considered well-engineered? It may change that person's mind about what to expect out of a speaker. Also, its a damn treat to listen to one. (Personally I don't like either speaker--each has its own problems; remember that FR is only one aspect of speakers--so I don't really care in this case.)

You could just point out the flaws and conclude with a recommendation or score.
Have you not read a single review here? There is a subjective portion to the reviews too (which to me is the less important part of the review but whatever). And if you need ANOTHER anecdote, I have heard these and they are awful. So we cancel each other out? What now? Do we need more random internet opinions? If you hate science so much why don't you go to another place where everything is special? At least here there is serious thought behind accolade or criticism. Debate is certainly welcome here, but be respectful enough to try to understand the basic engineering concepts and ideas that go into actually making speakers and don't just blather on as if an anecdote means anything. Do you not believe that measurements can tell us things our ears can't? Would you dismiss microscopes? Would you prefer a subjective review of television color accuracy? Or do you believe in golden eyes? Imagine the stupidity of such a youtube channel and you'll understand a lot of these audio reviewers. You are welcome to like more green tint, that is your choice, but do you not recognize the benefits of color accuracy and range? Or even of how it can help you with your preferences?
 

kokakolia

Active Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2022
Messages
117
Likes
72
I don't mean to sound rude, but maybe try to listen to a speaker that is considered well-engineered? It may change that person's mind about what to expect out of a speaker. Also, its a damn treat to listen to one. (Personally I don't like either speaker--each has its own problems; remember that FR is only one aspect of speakers--so I don't really care in this case.)


Have you not read a single review here? There is a subjective portion to the reviews too (which to me is the less important part of the review but whatever). And if you need ANOTHER anecdote, I have heard these and they are awful. So we cancel each other out? What now? Do we need more random internet opinions? If you hate science so much why don't you go to another place where everything is special? At least here there is serious thought behind accolade or criticism. Debate is certainly welcome here, but be respectful enough to try to understand the basic engineering concepts and ideas that go into actually making speakers and don't just blather on as if an anecdote means anything. Do you not believe that measurements can tell us things our ears can't? Would you dismiss microscopes? Would you prefer a subjective review of television color accuracy? Or do you believe in golden eyes? Imagine the stupidity of such a youtube channel and you'll understand a lot of these audio reviewers. You are welcome to like more green tint, that is your choice, but do you not recognize the benefits of color accuracy and range? Or even of how it can help you with your preferences?
Yeesh ! These are all valid points but it looks like you're physically incapable of recognizing subjectivity. Just let the guy enjoy his Klipsch speakers. You don't have to lecture him about bad engineering and more neutral speakers. In fact he doesn't care. He's not on this forum.

I don't like those speakers as well. My review of the Klipsch RP600M was lukewarm, but I recognize its strengths and why some people really appreciate them.
 
Top Bottom