GR Research Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade Review (speaker)

[noiseangel]

This would leave the Krapsch, miniDSP and Danny upgrade in its wake. And I haven't even heard it. And it still leaves room to finish it off the way you want.

SHOP | css-audio

www.css-audio.com

My whole point is who buys something only to have to spend more money on it for a marginal improvement? Klipsch did a shocking job on this speaker, it should never have been allowed out the "house" to play with the other children.

 

[tomtoo]

This would leave the Krapsch, miniDSP and Danny upgrade in its wake. And I haven't even heard it. And it still leaves room to finish it off the way you want.

SHOP | css-audio

www.css-audio.com

My whole point is who buys something only to have to spend more money on it for a marginal improvement? Klipsch did a shocking job on this speaker, it should never have been allowed out the "house" to play with the other children.

Got raving reviews. Blame the reviewers, when people buy this shiit. Not the people that dont know. Oh btw. this Jay did also a great review about the klipsch. Maybe a ear doctor could help? Maybe?

 

[Vacceo]

Got raving reviews. Blame the reviewers, when people buy this shiit. Not the people that dont know. Oh btw. this Jay did also a great review about the klipsch. Maybe a ear doctor could help? Maybe?

He did reviews on cables and power conditioners praising them. That should disqualify the dude on anything he says. If someone endorses homeopaty, even in audio, it is a no go on any other opinion.

 

[tomtoo]

He did reviews on cables and power conditioners praising them. That should disqualify the dude on anything he says. If someone endorses homeopaty, even in audio, it is a no go on any other opinion.

Yes i always wonder how this people hear cables but a huge midrange dip is great sounding. Strange world this is.

 

[Vacceo]

Yes i always wonder how this people hear cables but a huge midrange dip is great sounding. Strange world this is.

Or amps. Amps only "sound" when something is wrong. And yes, that includes Pass Labs "makeup".

 

[mhardy6647]

Here is the problem. I am out almost $500 on the first version! It is now just taking up space. Spending more money on the brand doesn't seem very enticing to me.

The old phrase throwing good money after bad fairly leaps to mind!

Yeah... Klipsch... I dunno.
If nothing else, the continued existence of the brand and its products probably speaks volumes (pun partially intended) about the de gustibus factor in audio reproduction preferences.

 

[DSJR]

A smooth upper mid dip - in my experience - is heard either as an enhanced soundstage with huge 'depth' of perceived image (Pro-Acs specialised in this and he used ARC valve/tube amps too which would alter the response all on their own I believe). Alternatively, this can be heard as a mid bass tubbiness with 'tinsel' on top, as my Rogers LS5/9's did *in this room* (in a different room, the upper mid recess pushed the image back but the exposed 'one-note-tinsel' from that rough old Audax large-dome tweeter remained - later re-imaginings of this old speaker tend to set the tweeter down a little on the originals, which then exposes a slight 3khz peak - and so it goes on).

A crossover dip such as the unmodified example here will tend to a boom-tizz kind of sound, at least with the 'tizz' isolated from everything else, but that's the way of some speakers. i just think Klipsch NOW are responding to the competition and taming their excesses into something a lot more friendly and today, sellable, right across the range.

 

[tomtoo]

A smooth upper mid dip - in my experience - is heard either as an enhanced soundstage with huge 'depth' of perceived image (Pro-Acs specialised in this and he used ARC valve/tube amps too which would alter the response all on their own I believe). Alternatively, this can be heard as a mid bass tubbiness with 'tinsel' on top, as my Rogers LS5/9's did *in this room* (in a different room, the upper mid recess pushed the image back but the exposed 'one-note-tinsel' from that rough old Audax large-dome tweeter remained - later re-imaginings of this old speaker tend to set the tweeter down a little on the originals, which then exposes a slight 3khz peak - and so it goes on).

A crossover dip such as the unmodified example here will tend to a boom-tizz kind of sound, at least with the 'tizz' isolated from everything else, but that's the way of some speakers. i just think Klipsch NOW are responding to the competition and taming their excesses into something a lot more friendly and today, sellable, right across the range.

I wonder how this did go with that fine audiophile ears from the reviewers.

 

[mhardy6647]

I think the designer was told to produce the product as is.

This is nothing new, of course.
Here's another, pretty good (and not entirely irrelevant) example from a couple of decades ago now.
I specifically remember the author of this Cambridge Six XO upgrade article, Jim Forte's, assessment of the original XOs. He explicitly invoked "bean counters" in his assessment of what was 'wrong' with the original crossover.

The late, redoubtable Zilch also did an assessment and rework of the CSW Six.

Cambridge Sound Works Model Six by Henry Kloss

Cambridge SoundWorks Model Six by Henry Kloss [IMG] [IMG] "The fullness of the sound, a function of mid-bass rather than low bass, is greater...

audiokarma.org

I actually once had two pairs of Sixes, 'before' and 'after' XO mod, but never compared them directly, qualitatively or quantitatively.
As it turns out, one pair lives with one of our kids, and the other pair with the other -- but they live 600 miles apart, so the direct ABX test is unfeasible at this point.

 

[Nwickliff]

So you think that I should go out and spend more money on a PEQ to fix up what is clearly a terrible loudspeaker just to satisfy you that that a PEQ will right the wrongs that in all honesty, this speaker should never have made it on to the market with such poor faults in the first place? Are you kidding?

This speaker was never put through the tests by Klipsch that you are saying the little CSS should be put through. If it was then clearly Klipsch are getting very crap at their job or they just don't care anymore. I wouldn't own let alone use a miniDSP to start off with, I would make a smarter choice of speaker. And the smarter choice would be to not buy this speaker, spend money on Danny's upgrade and then spend a further $220 on a miniDSP and then buy myself a Klippel to test it all. Just to satisfy you that I have learnt to use a PEQ and fix up a crap speaker? Tell Klipsch to do a better job and we wouldn't even be having a go at each other, this thread would cease to exist and all would be well in the world.

The ignorance is staggering……

 

[tomtoo]

This is nothing new, of course.
Here's another, pretty good (and not entirely irrelevant) example from a couple of decades ago now.
I specifically remember the author of this Cambridge Six XO upgrade article, Jim Forte's, assessment of the original XOs. He explicitly invoked "bean counters" in his assessment of what was 'wrong' with the original crossover.

The late, redoubtable Zilch also did an assessment and rework of the CSW Six.

Cambridge Sound Works Model Six by Henry Kloss

Cambridge SoundWorks Model Six by Henry Kloss [IMG] [IMG] "The fullness of the sound, a function of mid-bass rather than low bass, is greater...

audiokarma.org

I actually once had two pairs of Sixes, 'before' and 'after' XO mod, but never compared them directly, qualitatively or quantitatively.
As it turns out, one pair lives with one of our kids, and the other pair with the other -- but they live 600 miles apart, so the direct ABX test is unfeasible at this point.

You just need two phones.

Joking.

 

[abdo123]

I love how people are hypothesising how the dip would sound, just sit vertically off-axis of any bookshelf speaker you have.

 

[kokakolia]

A smooth upper mid dip - in my experience - is heard either as an enhanced soundstage with huge 'depth' of perceived image (Pro-Acs specialised in this and he used ARC valve/tube amps too which would alter the response all on their own I believe). Alternatively, this can be heard as a mid bass tubbiness with 'tinsel' on top, as my Rogers LS5/9's did *in this room* (in a different room, the upper mid recess pushed the image back but the exposed 'one-note-tinsel' from that rough old Audax large-dome tweeter remained - later re-imaginings of this old speaker tend to set the tweeter down a little on the originals, which then exposes a slight 3khz peak - and so it goes on).

A crossover dip such as the unmodified example here will tend to a boom-tizz kind of sound, at least with the 'tizz' isolated from everything else, but that's the way of some speakers. i just think Klipsch NOW are responding to the competition and taming their excesses into something a lot more friendly and today, sellable, right across the range.

Many people LOVE the "boom-tizz" sound. You could imply that this is the "Klipsch House Sound". Some coloration is desirable for consumers, especially in the entry level where a thousand compromises have to be made to reach a price point.

This is why I'm mildly annoyed that folks are convinced that removing the features which make the RP600M so popular is an unquestionable improvement. The RP600M were never marketed as a studio monitor/neutral speaker.

I'm not angry at the mod. Some people notice the flaws in the RP600M and seek to mitigate them. This decision cannot be undergone without making an initial judgement based on subjective listening. But don't make a blanket statement implying that EVERYONE who willingly listens to un-modded RP600M is stupid.

It is also clear that most people in this thread have never even heard music through the RP600M and argue that it's hot garbage because of the MeSuReMeNts.

And I know that in typical ASR fashion you're gonna argue through A+B+C that the mods make the RP600M objectively better and that I'm a moron for arguing otherwise. I am speaking for the audiophile community in other message boards who proudly showcase the RP600M in their rooms. And I'm also arguing for Klipsch who sold boatloads of Klipsch RP600M speakers.

The RP600M-2 is an interesting product. It's like Klipsch knew that their buyers want less coloration because measurements matter. The result is a more neutral speaker, but a less distinctively Klispch speaker. Like I said before, I believe that many folks will like mark 1 over mark 2.

 

[Nwickliff]

I’m really amazed at the amount of mental gymnastics in order to crap all over speaker that many have not ever heard but objectively measure extremely well with one glaring problem that is quite easily remedied with a PEQ fix.
I happened to go one step further and do it in the analog domain for kicks and experience.

Still have yet to see someone present a better passive speaker with narrow dispersion for $544 (what I paid for speaker plus mod) aside from the maybe the elac reference debut, which is still $100 more and has a completely different dispersion characteristic (180% wider). I happen to really love the a narrow dispersion as it makes the phantom center incredibly strong and places instruments in precise places in the soundstage.

Is it that hard to look at this speaker as if it didn’t haven’t this dip, has a nice Harmon curve and costs $544 dollars? You don’t even have to imagine it!! It exists, has been tested with graphs presented and listening tests performed! I think a stereo listening test might have been an eye opener for Amir given his account of the sound radiating directly from the speaker as a point source too! You had a second speaker and that point source becomes your phantom center image. Toe the speakers in aggressively with an untreated room and you still have that crazy phantom center along with more defuse sound that doesn’t call attention to the speakers themselves. Heck pick yourself a pair of RP160 (same exact speaker from a year earlier) buy XO parts from parts express and you have yourself a $300 speaker that really competes! Or put your head in the sand and keep crapping over Klipsch. Just realize you’re that EMO kid dressed in all black, with the mustache, chain wallet, thinking your the unique cool kid going against the grain….when in reality you’re just like all the others….

 

[tvih]

I agree that people seem to be overly critical of the speaker especially without hearing it in person. But calling it a 544-dollar speaker with the mod is also dishonest, Nwickliff. You might have gotten it for that price total but it was originally designed to be sold as is at what, 600? And thus should be objectively judged as such.

 

[Nwickliff]

I agree that people seem to be overly critical of the speaker especially without hearing it in person. But calling it a 544-dollar speaker with the mod is also dishonest, Nwickliff. You might have gotten it for that price total but it was originally designed to be sold as is at what, 600? And thus should be objectively judged as such.

There’s nothing dishonest about it! If you want a cheap sports car, go buy a used Miata! Saying the used Miata costs whatever it costs is NOT dishonest. I don’t need to go back and look up it’s dealer sticker value in 1980 because it has no relevance to the present. It’s just facts! Furthermore, you can find used Miatas ALL over the place, just as you can do a Craigslist search and find used RP600’s and RP160’s everywhere.

This is just in my area…pair for $350
Klipsch RP-600M & Zu Cables
https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ele/d/seattle-klipsch-rp-600m-zu-cables/7502874752.html

For $250 Check out this item on OfferUp. https://offerup.co/PtOP17dZkrb

 

[tvih]

Used prices are used prices. You can't judge a design based on that and then compare to new products at full price. Yes, if you want a good best bang for buck you buy used, but that's nothing to do with how good it was for its original price. If you wanna start comparing to other used speakers on the other hand to make it a fairer comparison, your 544 for the modeed Klipsch quickly becomes laughably overpriced. Hell, a pair of PSB Alpha B1s cost like 250 new and are under 100 used even here across the pond and have a more even frequency response, though with less bass extension - which with a sub would be irrelevant. For 544 one could buy a decent used sub, the B1s and a brand spanking new miniDSP 2x4 HD to EQ them all. Far superior value.

 

[Nwickliff]

There’s nothing dishonest about it! If you want a cheap sports car, go buy a used Miata! Saying the used Miata costs whatever it costs is NOT dishonest. It’s just facts! Furthermore, you can find used Miatas ALL over the place, just as you can do a Craigslist search and find used RP600’s and RP160’s everywhere.

This is just in my area…pair for $350
Klipsch RP-600M & Zu Cables
https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ele/d/seattle-klipsch-rp-600m-zu-cables/7502874752.html

For $250 Check out this item on OfferUp. https://offerup.co/PtOP17dZkrb

Used prices are used prices. You can't judge a design based on that and then compare to new products at full price. Yes, if you want a good best bang for buck you buy used, but that's nothing to do with how good it was for its original price. If you wanna start comparing to other used speakers on the other hand to make it a fairer comparison, your 544 for the modeed Klipsch quickly becomes laughably overpriced. Hell, a pair of PSB Alpha B1s cost like 250 new and are under 100 used even here across the pond and have a more even frequency response, though with less bass extension - which with a sub would be irrelevant. For 544 one could buy a decent used sub, the B1s and a brand spanking new miniDSP 2x4 HD to EQ them all. Far superior value.

I’m comparing it to what is available On the market. By all means please first find a speaker that’s comparable. Then see if it’s readily available on the used market. If it’s not then best to compare it to new since that’s the only way you’re able to purchase one. I don’t see anything wrong with this type of comparison. I have alerts for used elac reference speakers. Haven’t seen a single one in my area for over a year I’ve had it going. I just shared two used speakers for sale right now that you can purchase at the price or lower than I stayed in my area.

Don’t see one of the speakers you mentioned for sale anywhere. And they certainly do NOT have a more even response than the Rp600 with mod. 5db drop from 1.5K to 4K. No idea what the distortion measurements are but something tells me the 5/1/4 driver won't keep with the Klicph 6" driver. No real waveguide so I also doubt the directivity is as good as the controlled RP600m's. -3db is at 100hz so you need to spend money on a sub. Sorry but 100-250 for this speaker that can't play below 100hz with athority, $250 for the miniDSP and at $400 for a "decent" used sub is more than $544 and if you're into looks, it's not even close.....

 

[kokakolia]

I’m comparing it to what is available On the market. By all means please first find a speaker that’s comparable. Then see if it’s readily available on the used market. If it’s not then best to compare it to new since that’s the only way you’re able to purchase one. I don’t see anything wrong with this type of comparison. I have alerts for used elac reference speakers. Haven’t seen a single one in my area for over a year I’ve had it going. I just shared two used speakers for sale right now that you can purchase at the price or lower than I stayed in my area.

Don’t see one of the speakers you mentioned for sale anywhere.

These comparisons kinda miss the point. You're expecting too much for $600. Yes, the RP600M are compromised. But they're also the top of the pack for $600. Maybe you're expecting too much.

 

[tvih]

I’m comparing it to what is available On the market. By all means please first find a speaker that’s comparable. Then see if it’s readily available on the used market. If it’s not then best to compare it to new since that’s the only way you’re able to purchase one. I don’t see anything wrong with this type of comparison. I have alerts for used elac reference speakers. Haven’t seen a single one in my area for over a year I’ve had it going. I just shared two used speakers for sale right now that you can purchase at the price or lower than I stayed in my area.

Don’t see one of the speakers you mentioned for sale anywhere.

There's a few B1s in eBay US at least, though a bit higher on the price. Surprised if they're more expensive (or rarer) there than here, considering they were made in Canada. But that aside when you don't fixate on a specific model there's plenty of great deals to be found in the used market, often at ridiculously low prices making even 50% off seem like a poor deal. How about 20€ for Paradigm Phantom V2 floorstanders? I wasn't looking for them specifically but I sure as heck grabbed 'em. There's good deals every week even in my small city (~144k pop) in this tiny country (Finland), even if not quite as good as that Paradigm one.

That's not to say you shouldn't enjoy your speakers. But the point is comparing new & used is entirely pointless from a value perspective since you might as well ignore new ones altogether because they'll always lose, and a $240 crossover upgrade to an used originally ~$600 speaker just isn't a great deal no matter which way you look at it when you can find good full speakers for much less than that. Even for someone who already has the RP-600Ms and doesn't want to get different speakers as said they'd be better off with the $225 miniDSP 2x4 HD (assuming they're not using them with a computer that can EQ them, or and AVR with good room correction capabilities, or other such solution) that does far more than the crossover upgrade. That's just facts.