Good way to stream Amazon Music HD to DAC

[Bamyasi]

I have followed the suggestions of @Poultrygeist and @Bamyasi. Here is what happens on my system.

Scenario 1 playing UHD track
AMHD app playing and shows Track Quality 24/192 Device Capability 24/192 Currently Playing at 24/192
Audio extractor is on 2CH
External DAC (fed from the Toslink out of the extractor) shows a sampling rate of 48KHz.

Scenario 2 playing HD track
AMHD app playing and shows Track Quality 16/44.1 Device Capability 24/192 Currently Playing at 16/44.1
Audio extractor is on 2CH
External DAC (fed from the Toslink out of the extractor) shows a sampling rate of 48KHz.

Scenario 3 playing UHD
AMHD app playing and shows Track Quality 24/192 Device Capability 16/192 Currently Playing at 16/192
Audio extractor is on 5.1CH
External DAC (fed from the Toslink out of the extractor) shows a sampling rate of 192KHz.

Scenario 4 playing HD track
AMHD app playing and shows Track Quality 16/44.1 Device Capability 16/192 Currently Playing at 16/44.1
Audio extractor is on 5.1CH
External DAC (fed from the Toslink out of the extractor) shows a sampling rate of 192KHz.

When extractor is on 2CH, the firestick detects a device capability of 24/192 but only feeds the DAC a sampling rate of 48KHz. Downsampling a UHD track from 192 and upsampling an HD track from 44.1

When extractor is on 5.1CH, the firestick detects a device capability of 16/192 but feeds the DAC a constant sampling rate of 192 KHz and I assume at only 16 bit.

Can anyone help and shed some light on what could possibly be happening here. Why does the device capability bit rate change from 24 to 16 when I switch from 2CH to 5.1CH. The audio extractor toslink out does not match what the playing at sample rate reported by the AMHD app with the exception when it is set to 5.1 and playing a 24/192 track. However in that instance the bitrate is probably 16 instead of 24. My DAC display does not indicate the bit rate.

Thanks.

In 2CH mode it is the extractor which downmixes audio from what is received on its HDMI input to 2CH 24/48 fixed rate on the HDMI output. AMHD app has nothing to do with it and is not aware, hence still shows playing at full capability, as this is the extractor's HDMI input capability.

My Firestick would often hang and crash if I try switching between 2CH and 5.1CH on the extractor while AMHD app was running on the stick. Sometimes it would then require a cold reset for both to re-negotiate EDID properly. Try it.

What is your extractor's HDMI output connected to? Is it a TV or AVR?

Have you tried setting Surround Sound to Stereo in the Audio settings on the Firestick?

 

[Michael109]

@Bamyasi Thanks for the suggestions. My Firestick does not crash when switching between 2CH and 5.1CH. I have change the audio settings on the Firestick to stereo. I have cold booted the extractor, Firestick and the DAC with the extractor set at 5.1CH. The extractor's HDMI is plugged into a Yamaha AVR which can decode up to 24/192.

After the above, the issues remain.

The DAC display shows a constant sample rate of 192 MHz regardless of the sample rate of the track being played..
AMHD app shows device capability of 16/192.
AMHD app show currently playing at a bit rate of 16 even if it is a UHD track at 24 bits and the correct sampling rate based on the track.

I am not sure where does AMHD gets the information for the device capability. Both the HDMI out and the Toslink out of the extractor are connected to devices which can decode 24/192.

It appears that the extractor when set to 5.1CH is not passing through a clean bit perfect 2 channels of audio from HDMI in to Toslink out. It is resampling the toslink audio out channel to a constant 16/192!!!

Does this make any sense?

Getting AMHD to play properly in all its UHD glory seems to be just plain impossible. Has anyone tried to use the TV as the audio extractor and use Toslink out of TV into external DAC? This would not be a solution for me as my equipment is not close to the TV.

As an aside, I have purchased a used HEOS Link HS2 and can stream AMHD through the HEOS app but AMHD through the app is pretty much unusable...no playlists, no queuing and very slow interface.

 

[JimmyBuckets]

Qobuz streams with 24/96 with Chromecast Audio via optical to my RME ADI2 with no issues. Confirmed by my RME.

 

[Bamyasi]

@Bamyasi Thanks for the suggestions. My Firestick does not crash when switching between 2CH and 5.1CH. I have change the audio settings on the Firestick to stereo. I have cold booted the extractor, Firestick and the DAC with the extractor set at 5.1CH. The extractor's HDMI is plugged into a Yamaha AVR which can decode up to 24/192.

After the above, the issues remain.

The DAC display shows a constant sample rate of 192 MHz regardless of the sample rate of the track being played..
AMHD app shows device capability of 16/192.
AMHD app show currently playing at a bit rate of 16 even if it is a UHD track at 24 bits and the correct sampling rate based on the track.

Looks like the same issue as the one reported for some Denon AVR models here. Scroll down the discussion page for response from the Denon tech support quoted.

I am not sure where does AMHD gets the information for the device capability. Both the HDMI out and the Toslink out of the extractor are connected to devices which can decode 24/192.

EDID (Extended Display Identification Data) as received from your TV or AVR.

It appears that the extractor when set to 5.1CH is not passing through a clean bit perfect 2 channels of audio from HDMI in to Toslink out. It is resampling the toslink audio out channel to a constant 16/192!!!

This is not the extractor problem. AMDH app on all platforms resample output to a fixed rate equal to the maximum device's capability. This is the way AMDH software works, there is currently no way to defeat it.

Does this make any sense?

Well, it depends. If I were a programmer hired to write streaming app which has to work across all five major operating systems (plus several different versions of each OS) I might actually pursue the same design route. Otherwise maintaining this code will be a nightmare. Do not compare Amazon Music HD to Qobuz, the latter has way more limited OS support. Also, Amazon priorities are clearly totally different from small startups like Qobuz, TIDAL, etc. Audiophiles were never on Amazon target list I guess.

Getting AMHD to play properly in all its UHD glory seems to be just plain impossible. Has anyone tried to use the TV as the audio extractor and use Toslink out of TV into external DAC? This would not be a solution for me as my equipment is not close to the TV.

Have you tried feeding TV HDMI IN directly from the extractor's HDMI OUT and then its Toslink to the DAC? That's how it is set up here and I get 24bit/192KHz on Toslink consistently. DAC is Matrix Audio X-SABRE Pro (MQA).

As an aside, I have purchased a used HEOS Link HS2 and can stream AMHD through the HEOS app but AMHD through the app is pretty much unusable...no playlists, no queuing and very slow interface.

Firestick AMHD app also has limited functionality compared to Android version: no like buttons, no way to create/edit playlists or add albums to your music library, and no playback queue. So if you are happy with the Link HS2 sound quality then it's likely you do not lose that much in terms of convenience.

 

[Michael109]

Looks like the same issue as the one reported for some Denon AVR models here. Scroll down the discussion page for response from the Denon tech support quoted.

EDID (Extended Display Identification Data) as received from your TV or AVR.


This is not the extractor problem. AMDH app on all platforms resample output to a fixed rate equal to the maximum device's capability. This is the way AMDH software works, there is currently no way to defeat it.

Well, it depends. If I were a programmer hired to write streaming app which has to work across all five major operating systems (plus several different versions of each OS) I might actually pursue the same design route. Otherwise maintaining this code will be a nightmare. Do not compare Amazon Music HD to Qobuz, the latter has way more limited OS support. Also, Amazon priorities are clearly totally different from small startups like Qobuz, TIDAL, etc. Audiophiles were never on Amazon target list I guess.

Have you tried feeding TV HDMI IN directly from the extractor's HDMI OUT and then its Toslink to the DAC? That's how it is set up here and I get 24bit/192KHz on Toslink consistently. DAC is Matrix Audio X-SABRE Pro (MQA).

Firestick AMHD app also has limited functionality compared to Android version: no like buttons, no way to create/edit playlists or add albums to your music library, and no playback queue. So if you are happy with the Link HS2 sound quality then it's likely you do not lose that much in terms of convenience.

Thank you @Bamyasi for taking the time and sharing all your knowledge. I will try to bypass the AVR as you suggest. It maybe asking too much, but let's hope AMHD releases an update to fix the EDID issues with some AVR. While AMHD on the Firestick does have limited functionality, it at least allows me to access my playlists. I do like the AMHD visuals on a large screen with album art and lyrics. My plan is to use the firestick AMHD just for consumption and use Android or Windows version for creation and modification of music in "MyLibrary". I use an SMSL M300 DAC AKM4497 chip (non MQA I do not have Tidal).

 

[Michael109]

Thank you @Bamyasi for taking the time and sharing all your knowledge. I will try to bypass the AVR as you suggest. It maybe asking too much, but let's hope AMHD releases an update to fix the EDID issues with some AVR. While AMHD on the Firestick does have limited functionality, it at least allows me to access my playlists. I do like the AMHD visuals on a large screen with album art and lyrics. My plan is to use the firestick AMHD just for consumption and use Android or Windows version for creation and modification of music in "MyLibrary". I use an SMSL M300 DAC AKM4497 chip (non MQA I do not have Tidal).

UPDATE @Bamyasi I finally got around and ran an HDMI cable directly from the HDMI audio splitter to my TV and bypassed the AVR. Unfortunately this is the result

Audio splitter at 5.1
When I play a 24/196 track I get
The DAC display shows a sample rate of 48 MHz
AMHD app shows device capability of 16/192.
AMHD app shows currently playing at a bit rate of 16/192

When I switch the audio splitter to 2CH
When I play a 24/196 track I get
The DAC display shows a sample rate of 48 MHz
AMHD app shows device capability of 24/192.
AMHD app shows currently playing at a bit rate of 24/192

After all the different permutations, my question is which is better

Option 1
HDMI connected directly to TV
Splitter set to 2CH
AMHD shows track 24/192
AMHD shows device capability 24/192
AMDH shows currently playing 24/192
DAC shows 48

Option 2
HDMI connected directly to AVR
Splitter set to 5.1CH
AMHD shows track 24/192
AMHD shows device capability 16/192
AMDH shows currently playing 16/192
DAC shows 192

 

[Bamyasi]

UPDATE @Bamyasi I finally got around and ran an HDMI cable directly from the HDMI audio splitter to my TV and bypassed the AVR. Unfortunately this is the result

Audio splitter at 5.1
When I play a 24/196 track I get
The DAC display shows a sample rate of 48 MHz
AMHD app shows device capability of 16/192.
AMHD app shows currently playing at a bit rate of 16/192

When I switch the audio splitter to 2CH
When I play a 24/196 track I get
The DAC display shows a sample rate of 48 MHz
AMHD app shows device capability of 24/192.
AMHD app shows currently playing at a bit rate of 24/192

After all the different permutations, my question is which is better

Option 1
HDMI connected directly to TV
Splitter set to 2CH
AMHD shows track 24/192
AMHD shows device capability 24/192
AMDH shows currently playing 24/192
DAC shows 48

That's the same behavior as I see here: when 2CH is selected on the splitter everything on its TOSlink output is downmixed and resampled to 48KHz.

Option 2
HDMI connected directly to AVR
Splitter set to 5.1CH
AMHD shows track 24/192
AMHD shows device capability 16/192
AMDH shows currently playing 16/192
DAC shows 192

Now that looks weird. What kind of TV is it, if you don't mind? I am asking only for completeness of information, so that others who get to this thread by Google search, etc. will know what works and what might not work.

HDMI out from my CableMatters splitter is connected to a small portable 13" display w/HDMI, of the type you use to expand the screen estate of your phone or other small portable device on the go. It is inexpensive model from some no-brand Asian manufacturer and I bought it on Amazon. I doubt it's firmware supports EDID negotiation over HDMI at all.

From reading discussions on other fora, I was expecting this 16-bit truncation bug to affect only devices with support for multi-channel audio (i.e., A/V receivers and processors) but some modern TV sets may also support multi-channel audio (via eARC, for instance), then this looks to be the real culprit. In any case, it seems like a bug in the current Firestick firmware. We will have to wait until Amazon fixes it.

As to which audio format is better, I doubt you would be able to hear the difference. However, I'd rather avoid the second resampling at the splitter, if possible. I would prefer single resampling at 16/192 done in the AMHD app and passed through to the DAC with no further intervention from the splitter. Still not bitperfect but one less potential buggy resampling implementation in the path.

 

[Michael109]

That's the same behavior as I see here: when 2CH is selected on the splitter everything on its TOSlink output is downmixed and resampled to 48KHz.

Now that looks weird. What kind of TV is it, if you don't mind? I am asking only for completeness of information, so that others who get to this thread by Google search, etc. will know what works and what might not work.

HDMI out from my CableMatters splitter is connected to a small portable 13" display w/HDMI, of the type you use to expand the screen estate of your phone or other small portable device on the go. It is inexpensive model from some no-brand Asian manufacturer and I bought it on Amazon. I doubt it's firmware supports EDID negotiation over HDMI at all.

From reading discussions on other fora, I was expecting this 16-bit truncation bug to affect only devices with support for multi-channel audio (i.e., A/V receivers and processors) but some modern TV sets may also support multi-channel audio (via eARC, for instance), then this looks to be the real culprit. In any case, it seems like a bug in the current Firestick firmware. We will have to wait until Amazon fixes it.

As to which audio format is better, I doubt you would be able to hear the difference. However, I'd rather avoid the second resampling at the splitter, if possible. I would prefer single resampling at 16/192 done in the AMHD app and passed through to the DAC with no further intervention from the splitter. Still not bitperfect but one less potential buggy resampling implementation in the path.

@Bamyasi The TV is a Samsung UN60D8000. It is a 10 year old non 4K TV but a high end TV at the time when I purchased it. I believe It does support multichannel audio and I tried to change the audio settings to stereo only but not able to do so. It seems to automatically default to the highest quality audio. I am in Canada and the cable matters HDMI Audio extractor is not available on Amazon here. I purchased this one. I just compared the specs to the cable matters one and mine only supports HDMI 1.4 and not 2.0 which the Cable Matters one does. I am not sure if if the HDMI spec is relevant.

Based on my current set up, the only way to get my DAC to show 192 KHz is when I have it connected to the AVR. I was playing around again this morning with different settings and I surprisingly I found that the following works:

HDMI from splitter connected to AVR (AVR has to be turned on)
HDMI splitter set to PASS Through
AMHD playing 24/192 track
AMHD shows device capability 24/192
AMHD shows currently playing 24/192
DAC shows 192

I am not sure on Pass Through if there should be any signal coming out of the optical out! On this setting I also have sound coming out of the TV, so I have to mute the TV. Does the above make sense? I am starting to doubt my audio splitter now. Thanks.

 

[Michael109]

@Bamyasi The TV is a Samsung UN60D8000. It is a 10 year old non 4K TV but a high end TV at the time when I purchased it. I believe It does support multichannel audio and I tried to change the audio settings to stereo only but not able to do so. It seems to automatically default to the highest quality audio. I am in Canada and the cable matters HDMI Audio extractor is not available on Amazon here. I purchased this one. I just compared the specs to the cable matters one and mine only supports HDMI 1.4 and not 2.0 which the Cable Matters one does. I am not sure if if the HDMI spec is relevant.

Based on my current set up, the only way to get my DAC to show 192 KHz is when I have it connected to the AVR. I was playing around again this morning with different settings and I surprisingly I found that the following works:

HDMI from splitter connected to AVR (AVR has to be turned on)
HDMI splitter set to PASS Through
AMHD playing 24/192 track
AMHD shows device capability 24/192
AMHD shows currently playing 24/192
DAC shows 192

I am not sure on Pass Through if there should be any signal coming out of the optical out! On this setting I also have sound coming out of the TV, so I have to mute the TV. Does the above make sense? I am starting to doubt my audio splitter now. Thanks.

Update: I am not sure if I made a mistake or there was a firmware update on the Firestick, but now there is no sound coming out of the AVR/TV.

 

[arglebargle]

This has been frustrating. A quick synopsis is I can get 24/192 from a 2020 Fire Stick (1080p), going through a monoprice audio stripper to coax and into my DAC, with the HDMI to an old computer monitor. Where I am now baffled is that I can also get it to work using an Insignia TV that I have had for several years (cheap 24 inch in my office). I cannot get it to work on a brand new 32-inch Insignia TV--I get 16/192 on the screen. Debating returning the new TV just because of this. Seems ridiculous but I know the stick can do it, just doesn't work on some TVs.

As a side note, I have the same Denon issue as others here, but I'm not using the Denon for this setup.

 

[Bamyasi]

Update: I am not sure if I made a mistake or there was a firmware update on the Firestick, but now there is no sound coming out of the AVR/TV.

There were at least three firmware updates (described as "component update") arriving for my Firestick 4K since my last post but everything still works. In fact, I did not notice any changes related to audio at all. Could be something else? Try restarting your stick.

 

[asr1837373829w936q9]

I use iPhone and wanted to stream AmazonMusicHD digitally via Optical input of my edifier s2000mkiii. Ended up using an old AppleTV I had as it has Optical out (newest model don’t have it). Old AppleTV 2nd gen costs about $20 on ebay.

 

[mermayer]

I use iPhone and wanted to stream AmazonMusicHD digitally via Optical input of my edifier s2000mkiii. Ended up using an old AppleTV I had as it has Optical out (newest model don’t have it). Old AppleTV 2nd gen costs about $20 on ebay.

This connection use Apple AirPlay and this is not HIRES. Apple’s AirPlay 2 protocol downsamples audio files to 24-bit 44.1 kHz.

 

[sorepaws]

I am but a simple bear - first thank you for letting me join. I have been reading through the thread here and hope you don't mind me adding my set up for AMHD.
I use a fanless PC hooked up to a Topping E30 DAC feeding a Denon AV amp. (split input HDMI for Video - Analogue for sound) The PC only runs AMHD and PLEX media server, so light CPU reqirements. I get good sound quality (I have also tried Qobuz and Tidal) the range of music is second only to Spotify.
The Denon drives a pair of very old Dynaudio Finales (built when dinosaurs rulled the earth) which I have found difficult to improve upon.

The setup makes it very easy to use, although having a keyboard and mouse might put some people off.

It would be rather nice if AMHD were integrated into Roon or Audirvana - but until then I will just enjoy listening to music I would otherwise not even consider if I had to buy the CD/SD.

 

[Harmonie]

@sorepaws Welcome to ASR

 

[RoyB]

Sorepaws....Well played! Welcome aboard!

 

[asr1837373829w936q9]

This connection use Apple AirPlay and this is not HIRES. Apple’s AirPlay 2 protocol downsamples audio files to 24-bit 44.1 kHz.

Thanks for the info! For me this is all I need ;-) I’m very happy to have CD quality on my phone without maintaining a library of CDs.

I got curious about Echo Dot 2nd gen internals that I also use. Echo Dot can be connected to my edifier s2000 using line out (3.5mm to rca AmazonBasic cable for ~$10). I was skeptical about the quality of analog audio out until I looked at teardown reports and found out that the echo dot is using Texas Instruments chip https://www.ti.com/product/TLV320DAC3101 For me this looks amazing but I might have misinterpreted some of info.

Just some specs:

• 24-bit stereo playback
• THD + N @ 1 kHz (%): 0.007% <— !!!
• Stereo Audio DAC With 95-dB SNR
• Supports 8-kHz to 192-kHz Sample Rates
• Stereo Class-AB headphones/lineout 16-Ω

DAC
The stereo-audio DAC supports data rates from 8 kHz to 192 kHz. Each channel of the stereo audio-DAC consists of a signal-processing engine with fixed processing blocks, a digital interpolation filter, a multibit digital delta-sigma modulator, and an analog reconstruction filter. The DAC is designed to provide enhanced performance at low sampling rates through increased oversampling and image filtering, thereby keeping quantization noise generated within the delta-sigma modulator and signal images strongly suppressed within the audio band to beyond 20 kHz. To handle multiple input rates and optimize power dissipation and performance, the device allows the system designer to program the oversampling rates over a wide range from 1 to 1024 by configuring page 0 / register 13 and page 0 / register 14. The system designer can choose higher oversampling ratios for lower input data rates and lower oversampling ratios for higher input data rates.

All of that makes me want to get an oscilloscope and do the measurements ;-)

 

[mermayer]

I got curious about Echo Dot 2nd gen internals that I also use. Echo Dot can be connected to my edifier s2000 using line out (3.5mm to rca AmazonBasic cable for ~$10). I was skeptical about the quality of analog audio out until I looked at teardown reports and found out that the echo dot is using Texas Instruments chip https://www.ti.com/product/TLV320DAC3101 For me this looks amazing but I might have misinterpreted some of info.

This says Amazon:
Recommended Media Support
This document lists codecs, containers, streaming formats, and playlists, that your product should support to provide a familiar Alexa experience to your customers.

 

[Shawk]

I wanted to add something of a different setup and the limitations I ran into.

I have a 2013 Panasonic Plasma, a Lyngdorf 1120 stereo receiver (with 1x eARC input), and a Fire TV Cube. The Cube is connected to the TV, the TV via ARC HDMI to the Lyngdorf. My intention so far has been to get 24/192 from the Cube somehow, and get it to the receiver.

Since the TV seems to resample anything it gets to 20/48 (weird, but thats what the Lnygdorf shows), I wanted to bypass the TV.

I actually went ahead and bought a HDFury Arcana for 200€. This nifty little box allows to emulate a 4k UDH 24/192 device to whatever is put into it, be it a TV stick or a TV cube e.g. It then passes on the video signal to the TV (even got ARC support) and splits off the audio signal into ARC/eARC HDMI for another device. It is mainly targeted to Sonos ARC soundbars, but works with any ARC/eARC audio receiver.

In my case I noticed the following behavior:
The Fire TV Cube (2nd Generation) seems to only output 16bit 48khz when set to "Stereo" in audio settings. This impacts Amazon Music HD, which actually sees a capable 24/192 device (HD Fury Arcana), also plays at 24/192 (tested with Toto - Africa UHD), but I am still receiving 16/48 only at the Lyngdorf.

Fire TV Cube is version: 7.2.2.9 (PS7229/1853)
Amazon Music HD is version: 3.3.664.0

This would mean playing 24/192 content on Amazon Music HD on a Fire TV Cube set to Stereo is basically getting downmixed by the Cube itself to 16/48.

When the cube is set to DD or DD+ it actually sends bitstream, which unfortunately I cannot decode at my receiver. So I do not know what resolution is transported there.

 

[Shawk]

So I just got a reply from Amazon. They stated:

While the Amazon Music app does support UHD quality music streams, the Fire TV Cube itself only supports up to 48khz.

You're welcome to look over the Developer page here for supported audio formats.

So the Fire TV is still the limiting factor. It seems hoping to get 24/192 on a Fire TV Cube because the Amazon Music App can do it was a false expectation. Checking the specs Amazon provided, this seems to be true for all Amazon Fire TVs (Stick, Cube etc.) at this point in time.

So I am really wondering how e.g. arglebargle above got 24/192 out of a Fire Stick (even with the audio stripper involved), when the FLAC and OPUS formats used by Amazon Music HD are limited on the Fire TV sticks to 48khz as per the spec page. Actually no format listed there is supported with 192khz.