Good somewhat neutral mixing headphones with good bass extension for max. 350€?

[solderdude]

I think this doesn't look too bad

95dB at 130Hz and 70dB at 300Hz ... that's 25dB difference.
Due to the way the hearing works (ERB) it isn't perceived that way though.
Look at both HD681 and HD650 and compare.

Such is the problem with measurements and perception.

If you want an open headphone that translates well to calibrated nearfield monitors you can simply buy the JT7.
It will get you there with no EQ. It will cost you € 120.-
You can't buy a cheap set of decent monitors with good bass extension and certainly not at 100dB SPL for that money.

You could EQ 600Hz a bit (-2dB wide bandwidth) if needed.

No need to think about this any further.
HD650 with EQ will get you there too IF you apply the correct EQ in the lows.

 

[FireEmblem]

95dB at 130Hz and 70dB at 300Hz ... that's 25dB difference.
Due to the way the hearing works (ERB) it isn't perceived that way though.
Look at both HD681 and HD650 and compare.

Such is the problem with measurements and perception.

Yes but that must not necessarily be my room. I just checked 130Hz with a sinewave generator and dialed out my subwoofer, it seems the sub is doing 80% of that signal at 130Hz. Around 250Hz my subwoofer almost stops to work, from there on the satellites are mainly responsible for the playback. That correlates with the graph going down at that point in my measurements. Perhaps my sub was just dialed in a bit stronger than the volume of my satellites.

With the Adam T7Vs things should be much smoother as they come with a balanced volume distribution throughout their frequency spectrum.. and the sub isn't under the table but right in the speaker, that should also lead to fewer buildups. Plus perhaps a much better linear response, could be that my consumer rig has a baked in boost at 130Hz on top of all.

 

[solderdude]

Room effects occur below the Schroder frequency.
With a separate sub and speakers there is not only the room but also different points of origin (creating phase differences that are position dependent) AND phase shifts caused by the high and low pass filters.
The point is ... measurements are useful but there is also perception aspects.

 

[FireEmblem]

The point is ... measurements are useful but there is also perception aspects.

Yes, even though the measurement shows this bigger difference, with my particular place this sounds good. I must admit I didn't do what was suggested, listening to music a bit before measuring and finding an average volume for the sub. Could as well be that I listened to a track before that, which was a bit bass-weak so that I bumped up the sub before taking measurements.. but in my room bass never occured as an problem to me in terms of having audible boosts or nulling at my sitting position.

Only with the Adam T10S, which was definitely terrible in my untreated room But my consumer system that ends at 50Hz and the T7V that go down to 39Hz do work well here.

 

[FTB]

[...]

How important is it, that the target curve is Harman? As far as I understood now, people hear different, so you just try different curves and see which of those sound most balanced to you and then just adjust from there on. Is Harman doing anything better then let's say RTINGS?
[...]

You should read the PDF I linked before : https://danishsoundcluster.dk/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Olive_DSD_2022.pdf

The only true researches about headphones measurements come from these works of Sean Olive for Harman.
Superiority of B&K5128 is not proven at all ( https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-targets-for-the-b-k-5128-gras-45ca-10.66704/ ), as superiority of other target curves made from this or this reviewer.

Like it is said in page 26, you may not like the Harman target but 2/3 of people like it and the other third like a bit different bass level so it is globally accepted as a good target. At least it is made from a bunch of people with repetitive methods : different age, gender, country, trained or untrained.

Targets made from reviewers (Soundguys, headphones.com, Rtings, crinacle...) are made from the opinion of only one person or two.
One person isn't a sample to determine scientifically something.

We know nothing of the methods of these reviewers to determine their target.
With Harman we know and we have data from AES publications...

 

[FireEmblem]

Targets made from reviewers (Soundguys, headphones.com, Rtings, crinacle...) are made from the opinion of only one person or two.
One person isn't a sample to determine scientifically something.

This is not correct, I linked the article earlier, it's an interesting read:

One Curve Doesn't Fit All: 350 Headphone Listening Tests Show That Many Sound Profiles Can Be Preferred

The quest for one ideal frequency response curve for headphones has been the subject of many heated debates among enthusiasts.

www.rtings.com

In regards to Sonarworks, they also share information about their internal process. They tested it with 147 000 individuals:

SoundID SR for Headphones: A new Headphone Tuning Standard - Sonarworks Blog

This White Paper covers data-based insights and a proposal for the new headphone calibration standard and its implications for the industry

www.sonarworks.com

Personally, I like Sonarworks best so far, between Harman, RTINGs and Sonarworks.

Harman curve doesn't balance out the HD681 enough. It makes the sound underwater/washed out and it tricks you into believing that there's much more headroom for high frequencies than what there actually is.

What I expect from a flat signal is that things are balanced but accurate, meaning I can still recognize how much I can carve out an area or sharpen it or add EQ. Sonarworks so far gives me an accurate, translatable base for estimation while with harman I'd overcompensate for the amount that's being sucked out.

(Note that I am referring to the Harman OE 2018 target, specifically made for over ear headphones).

 

[FTB]

It's cool that Sonarworks use different fixtures (although I don't believe their 147 000 individuals claim) but we can see, again, that RTings use the B&K 5128 with no proven superiority...
Both Sonarworks and Rtings works stem somehow from Harman research...

 

[FTB]

I tried something now. I'm new to this:

I downloaded APO EQ, then found Superlux HD681 measured to harman 2018 OE linear:

View attachment 499148

Is this a reliable source?

I then added 10 bands and clicked auto-EQ, exported that one and imported it in APO EQ.

This harman curve sounds different to Sonarworks, it leaves more of the 'shimmering' in the treble and sounds a bit more unbalanced to me. It leaves more of the typical HD681 character with the harsh top that sticks out vs. everything else.

I didn't look into the exact values or tuned anything yet, cuz it's super late and bedtime for me. Just a rough first impression with the lazy auto-EQ button.

Just saw that but the target you show ("harman linear") isn't the Harman target.
The right one is this with more elevated bass :

Maybe you should try to EQ with this correct curve and you will know what Harman target sounds really.

Otherwise I think UnheardLab is one of the good reviewer here, using the GRAS fixture, his measurements fits what I hear mostly but be careful, there is a lot of "funny" measurements with funny targets on SquigLink, there is a lot of sorting to do.

You can add more band for the treble to be EQed too :


Or you can try this one : https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/aw7b....pdf?rlkey=h4zxx5dlult8hmlpxxotlkhe8&e=1&dl=0

Oratory is one of the top reviewer here.
With this you can really determine if you like or not the Harman target.

 

[FireEmblem]

Just saw that but the target you show ("harman linear") isn't the Harman target.
The right one is this with more elevated bass :View attachment 499410
Maybe you should try to EQ with this correct curve and you will know what Harman target sounds really.

Otherwise I think UnheardLab is one of the good reviewer here, using the GRAS fixture, his measurements fits what I hear mostly but be careful, there is a lot of "funny" measurements with funny targets on SquigLink, there is a lot of sorting to do.

You can add more band for the treble to be EQed too : View attachment 499411

Unfortunately the problem is somehwere in the region that's equal in both curves. This one just added a bit of bass. But there's something going on in the rest that make it sound a bit more washed out. I tried this one and it's virtually the same except for the low end. If I would be mixing with this curve, I would believe I have more headroom for the strings and they would start to cut into your ears in the final mix.

With Sonarworks, I got the same balanaced and flat feel, but it's easier to spot that the strings already do sound sharp and should not be further refined to come out more. With other words, I can more clearly see the final result that it will give on consumer systems, although I'm still in the linear mode and listening to the flat thing.

I believe the Harman curve is sucking out a bit too much and creates artificial headroom that isn't really there. Also, Sonarworks sounds more balanced overall. Harman has more sharp details like syllables and high notes piercing through. Sounds bit more like through some old radio.

 

[FTB]

Did you try to add more band ?
Because on the screenshot you made there is no EQ after 5 kHz and the treble is too high.

On the screenshot I show with 11 band, EQ is applied after 5 kHz and the treble follow the target.

Also, Oratory EQ are very reliable, give it a try !

For now I don't think you really heard what the Harman target is.

 

[FireEmblem]

Did you try to add more band ?
Because on the screenshot you made there is no EQ after 5 kHz and the treble is too high.

On the screenshot I show with 11 band, EQ is applied after 5 kHz and the treble follow the target.

Also, Oratory EQ are very reliable, give it a try !

For now I don't think you really heard what the Harman target is.

Yes I had the same settings as you on your screen, I took the harman OE target without "linear" that you suggested, used auto EQ and imported this to APO:

Preamp: -7.2 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 21 Hz Gain 7.3 dB Q 1.800
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 46 Hz Gain -0.8 dB Q 2.500
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 91 Hz Gain 1.5 dB Q 3.000
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 180 Hz Gain -1.3 dB Q 1.000
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 520 Hz Gain 1.0 dB Q 2.300
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 1600 Hz Gain 3.6 dB Q 2.300
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 3300 Hz Gain -2.4 dB Q 1.200
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 4000 Hz Gain 12.0 dB Q 3.000
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 5000 Hz Gain -9.0 dB Q 3.000
Filter 10: ON PK Fc 6700 Hz Gain 3.0 dB Q 3.000
Filter 11: ON PK Fc 8400 Hz Gain -7.5 dB Q 3.000
Filter 12: OFF PK Fc 0 Hz Gain 0.0 dB Q 0.000

It seems values sometime vary by 0-1dB but that shouldn't make drastic changes.

Where can I find accurate Oratory measurements?

 

[FTB]

The dropbox link, bottom page : https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/aw7b....pdf?rlkey=h4zxx5dlult8hmlpxxotlkhe8&e=1&dl=0

His list of measurements : https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets/

 

[FireEmblem]

The dropbox link, bottom page : https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/aw7b....pdf?rlkey=h4zxx5dlult8hmlpxxotlkhe8&e=1&dl=0

His list of measurements : https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets/

Somehow APO doesn't want to import my custom EQ. I took the measures from the link and pasted them into a .txt file in exact the same format as the other filters that work. But when I want to import this one, the import button stays greyed out. What am I overlooking?

Preamp: -5.5 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 63 Hz Gain -1.5 dB Q 1.800
Filter 2: ON LS Fc 105 Hz Gain 5.5 dB Q 0.710
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 500 Hz Gain 1.0 dB Q 1.400
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 1050 Hz Gain -2.8 dB Q 1.000
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 2500 Hz Gain -2.9 dB Q 2.500
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 4800 Hz Gain -5.7 dB Q 5.000
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 5500 Hz Gain -2.5 dB Q 5.000
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 7200 Hz Gain -2.1 dB Q 5.000
Filter 9: ON HS Fc 7900 Hz Gain -4.0 dB Q 0.710
Filter 10: ON PK Fc 8000 Hz Gain -3.1 dB Q 6.000

 

[FTB]

Somehow APO doesn't want to import my custom EQ. I took the measures from the link and pasted them into a .txt file in exact the same format as the other filters that work. But when I want to import this one, the import button stays greyed out. What am I overlooking?

Preamp: -5.5 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 63 Hz Gain -1.5 dB Q 1.800
Filter 2: ON LS Fc 105 Hz Gain 5.5 dB Q 0.710
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 500 Hz Gain 1.0 dB Q 1.400
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 1050 Hz Gain -2.8 dB Q 1.000
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 2500 Hz Gain -2.9 dB Q 2.500
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 4800 Hz Gain -5.7 dB Q 5.000
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 5500 Hz Gain -2.5 dB Q 5.000
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 7200 Hz Gain -2.1 dB Q 5.000
Filter 9: ON HS Fc 7900 Hz Gain -4.0 dB Q 0.710
Filter 10: ON PK Fc 8000 Hz Gain -3.1 dB Q 6.000

Hi,

The joined TXT works on my computer.
Maybe there was one zero too many in the Q value.

Did you turn on the panel beside "include the file" ?

 

[Human Bass]

Softears Studio 4 is very neutral. A tad over 350 but by not much and you can probably buy it used for less.

Squiglink - IEM frequency response database by ATechReviews

Compare hundreds of frequency response graphs between IEMs and earphones from manufacturers like Moondrop, Sony, 64 Audio, Fiio, and more.

atechreviews.squig.link

 

[DEALUX]

I use the Fiio FT1 Pro with EP100A pads. The stock response is actually really good, but slightly weird ear gain and lower bass. I use it with a KA17 THX dongle to add more bass and fix the eargain. I can produce and mix with this calibration just fine but I would probably add an IEM to my set-up to hear those finer treble details a bit better.

 

[Human Bass]

Ziigaat Odyssey 2 is well below 350. The bass has a tasteful easy to account for boost, the rest of the FR is pretty neutral.

Squiglink - IEM frequency response database by ATechReviews

Compare hundreds of frequency response graphs between IEMs and earphones from manufacturers like Moondrop, Sony, 64 Audio, Fiio, and more.

atechreviews.squig.link