Good somewhat neutral mixing headphones with good bass extension for max. 350€?

[FireEmblem]

Hi! I'm thinking about sticking with the Sennheiser HD650, but the lowend could be better, and since they have high distortion when you EQ them, I'm thinking about getting another headphone. Do you know any headphone for <350€ that meets the criteria of being mostly uncoloured and have a decent bass extension for precise mixing?

 

[Jiraya369]

none, no headphone is good enough for mixing by itself. Your own HRTF is what matters to have the perception of neutral even then, a 150 dollar pair of speakers that is tuned to neutrality will be better.

Only use headphones to monitor the low end.

However, you CAN get headphones and learn them over the course of a year through rigorous listening and mixing practice, but then any product can be used like that.

 

[FireEmblem]

none, no headphone is good enough for mixing by itself.

I disagree, headphones are fantastic for mixing. But I didn't want to turn this thread into a debate about this, I'm just interested in hearing about headphone models that measured somewhat flat and have great bass extension.

I've read that planar headphones and IEMs would be good for that purpose. But the few Hifiman planar's I've found in that price range have mediocre reviews here (one model suffers from a lot of distortion) and IEMs seem to be more used live on stage than for mixing, although many websites claim they're popular for mixing too. They probably sound very narrow compares to over ears, though.

 

[solderdude]

One can mix on many headphones as long as one knows how they 'translate' to a reference (monitor).
In other words ... when one likes the sound of a headphone and can get a mix to be equally 'likable' in sound you are probably close.

If I had to recommend a headphone for mixing I would suggest the JT7.

 

[Jiraya369]

I disagree, headphones are fantastic for mixing. But I didn't want to turn this thread into a debate about this, I'm just interested in hearing about headphone models that measured somewhat flat and have great bass extension.

I've read that planar headphones and IEMs would be good for that purpose. But the few Hifiman planar's I've found in that price range have mediocre reviews here (one model suffers from a lot of distortion) and IEMs seem to be more used live on stage than for mixing, although many websites claim they're popular for mixing too. They probably sound very narrow compares to over ears, though.

you dont know what hrtf is, and those who mix well on planars can also mix well on 10 dollar DD iems if they have enough time.

I have a Hifiman HE1000 V2 Stealth and everything translates better on my monitors that cost 1/4th the price.

You can disagree with your anatomy all you want but the fact is headphones arent the best for mixing.

 

[DVDdoug]

Most pros advise against mixing on headphones but they can be helpful if you have monitors with poor bass or an untreated room because they avoid room modes.

Here are some excerpts I've collected:

This is from Recording Magazine's "Readers Submissions" where readers send-in their recordings for evaluation:

As those of you who have followed this column for any length of time can attest, headphone mixing is one of the big no-no's around these parts. In our humble opinion, headphone mixes do not translate well in the real world, period, end of story. Other than checking for balance issues and the occasional hunting down of little details, they are tools best left for the tracking process.

And this is from Recording Magazine by a mixing engineer:

Can I mix on headphones?

No. But in all seriousness, headphones can be a secret weapon and it really doesn’t matter what they sound like…

Over time, after constantly listening back to my work from different studios on those headphones I really started to learn them. They became sort of a compass. Wherever I went… It became a pattern for me to reference these headphones to see if what I was hearing was “right”…

I learned them, I knew them, I trusted them. It didn’t matter whether or not I loved them…

So, can you mix on headphones? Probably. I just think you really need to put some time into learning them first…

This is from Floyd Tool's book, Sound Reproduction

Headphones entertain masses of people. Professionals occasionally mix on them when conditions demand it. Both rely on some connection to sound reproduction, that is, loudspeakers in rooms, because that's how stereo is intended to be heard. Stereo recordings are mixed on loudspeakers.

 

[kemmler3D]

They probably sound very narrow compares to over ears, though.

Not if you use crossfeed or some other kind of spatialization. But that's a whole rabbit hole unto itself.

I would recommend Truthear Gate IEMs for monitoring bass. They have a pretty neutral response and have extremely low distortion for a DD IEM, so they take EQ well. You can get loud, clean bass out of them no problem. The fact that they're extremely cheap is just a bonus.

And after all, perceived width of image isn't much of a factor when it comes to mixing bass anyway.

For over-ears I don't know of any that have great bass inside your budget, but I don't follow the space very closely.

 

[FireEmblem]

you dont know what hrtf is

I know what hrtf is, I just don't believe it's as much of an issue as some like you do. My mixes with headphones translate absolutely well to everywhere. I just enjoy a wider stage on other headphones more, so I'm looking for an upgrade for just more joy, preferably without lacking in the low end.

You can disagree with your anatomy all you want but the fact is headphones arent the best for mixing.

Ofc you don't have to take my word for it, there are other, very famous people who do this. Andrew Scheps who mixed some of the most iconic bestseller albums of all times (Michael Jackson, Metallica) mixes entirely on headphones. He said if he gets to mix a new album, he will listen to it for only once in the beginning on studio monitors, then switch to headphones and do the entire mix there without going back and forth.

 

[FireEmblem]

Not if you use crossfeed or some other kind of spatialization. But that's a whole rabbit hole unto itself.

I would recommend Truthear Gate IEMs for monitoring bass. They have a pretty neutral response and have extremely low distortion for a DD IEM, so they take EQ well. You can get loud, clean bass out of them no problem. The fact that they're extremely cheap is just a bonus.

And after all, perceived width of image isn't much of a factor when it comes to mixing bass anyway.

For over-ears I don't know of any that have great bass inside your budget, but I don't follow the space very closely.

20€ is really nice. Are they somewhat flat and made for mixing, or more for listening?

 

[kemmler3D]

Ofc you don't have to take my word for it, there are other, very famous people who do this. Andrew Scheps who mixed some of the most iconic bestseller albums of all times (Michael Jackson, Metallica) mixes 99% on headphones. He said if he gets to mix a new album, he will listen to it for only once in the beginning on studio monitors, then switch to headphones and do the entire mix there without going back and forth.

I'm not disputing that you can mix on headphones if you happen to be very accustomed to it.

But there are good reasons not to do it. As @Jiraya369 correctly points out, there's no such thing as a single, true "neutral" response for headphones because the frequency response actually does depend on your personal HRTF, which is also not at all trivial to compensate for with EQ.

The crossfeed being nothing like speaker crosstalk (even if you use crossfeed on your headphones) is another one.

 

[FireEmblem]

I'm not disputing that you can mix on headphones if you happen to be very accustomed to it.

But there are good reasons not to do it. As @Jiraya369 correctly points out, there's no such thing as a single, true "neutral" response for headphones because the frequency response actually does depend on your personal HRTF, which is also not at all trivial to compensate for with EQ.

I'm not looking for "true" neutrality anyways (if that even exists), I just want to ensure I'm not getting a device with wild consumer EQ curves so that I don't have to get too used to it first and also might run into several returns because I dislike what they did. On the other hand, I know that I like more flat EQ curve so purchases are a bit more convenient here for me.

So if a device was made with mixing in mind and at least attemps to be somewhat flat, that's good enough. Regarding HRTF, I think this is not much of an issue. However, afaik IEMs do avoid this largely because they start working much deeper in the ear and bypass all of the ear's structures and other factors that happen with OEHs.

I'm also not a fan of crossover functions. Simply because we've been listening to music on headphones for our entire lives, so we know what a good headphone mix should sound like that translates back to speakers. Crossover would probably require a lot of re-learning about how a good mix should sound like on headphones with crossfeed, which is just another unnecessary path imo.

Have you seen my follow up question?

20€ is really nice. Are they somewhat flat and made for mixing, or more for listening?

Or did you just recommend them for monitoring low end?

 

[kemmler3D]

20€ is really nice. Are they somewhat flat and made for mixing, or more for listening?

They're quite flat as far as IEMs go. Amir reviewed them here.

I think they're shockingly good all-around, I actually bought two pairs so I could have one if the first pair broke.

My comment: I would let go of the "for mixing" vs "for listening" dichotomy, especially when it comes to headphones. There's some truth to the distinction when it comes to monitor speakers, as the radiation patterns may make more or less sense in a treated studio environment and true nearfield listening vs. couch listening. When it comes to headphones, either they are neutral or not, and if they are, you could argue they are more suitable for mixing.

So... they're not marketed as being for mixing, but the performance is such that you can say they're good for mixing, as far as that goes.

I think real pro audio IEMs are mostly custom-fit for better isolation on stage, but as far as frequency response and distortion there isn't some additional layer of tuning that would make consumer stuff into pro / studio IEMs.

 

[kemmler3D]

owever, afaik IEMs do avoid this largely because they start working much deeper in the ear and bypass all of the ear's structures and other factors that happen with OEHs.

Last point ... this actually makes IEMs arguably worse in that regard.

A flat speaker is a flat speaker for everyone, because our brains tune our hearing to compensate for HRTF. So as long as the speaker's output is flat, our brains hear it as flat, after it's filtered by the HRTF.

If you bypass the head and body with over-ear headphones, you now have to compensate for that missing filter. (This is why there are target responses for headphones, and they are far from actually being flat. It's also why there are many different target repsonses, because they're attempting to average out the acoustic effect of an average person's anatomy, which of course varies like crazy from person to person in practice. )

If you bypass the head, body, AND pinnae (ears) with IEMs, you also have to compensate for an additional missing filter.

I am not an expert on this, but AFAIK the in-ear insertion doesn't save you any trouble when it comes to HRTFs.

 

[FireEmblem]

They're quite flat as far as IEMs go. Amir reviewed them here.

I think they're shockingly good all-around, I actually bought two pairs so I could have one if the first pair broke.

Wow, according to the measurement they're the flattest device I've yet seen. Also almost no distortion. Only thing that stuck out is "falls short in bass".

My comment: I would let go of the "for mixing" vs "for listening" dichotomy, especially when it comes to headphones. There's some truth to the distinction when it comes to monitor speakers, as the radiation patterns may make more or less sense in a treated studio environment and true nearfield listening vs. couch listening. When it comes to headphones, either they are neutral or not, and if they are, you could argue they are more suitable for mixing.

I don't quite understand what the comparison with the speakers and the couch is aiming for. If you've got a pair of headphones that has wild EQ coloration pre-baked in, you'd have a much harder time getting used to that and learning the pairs individual characteristics. Why would that not be something that could be present on headphones?

I think real pro audio IEMs are mostly custom-fit for better isolation on stage, but as far as frequency response and distortion there isn't some additional layer of tuning that would make consumer stuff into pro / studio IEMs.

That would've been my next question, why there are IEMs that cost a couple of hundreds if those 20€ ones measure so damn well. So it's mainly just about durability and such? I mean, the test really doesn't leave much to be desired..

 

[FireEmblem]

Last point ... this actually makes IEMs arguably worse in that regard.

A flat speaker is a flat speaker for everyone, because our brains tune our hearing to compensate for HRTF. So as long as the speaker's output is flat, our brains hear it as flat, after it's filtered by the HRTF.

If you bypass the head and body with over-ear headphones, you now have to compensate for that missing filter.

If you bypass the head, body, AND pinnae (ears) with IEMs, you also have to compensate for an additional missing filter.

I am not an expert on this, but AFAIK the in-ear insertion doesn't save you any trouble when it comes to HRTFs.

Hmm, I've read the opposite: While over ear headphones will create different frequency changes due to your ear's structure, the pads of the headphone used, the position on the head (could even be different tomorrow than today if you place the band differently), even hair below your earpads and reflections within the headphones, the IEMs are just bypassing all of that. They start out straight in your inner ear and what you hear is just the actual frequency response coming from the device itself, without post-alterations.

 

[kemmler3D]

Wow, according to the measurement they're the flattest device I've yet seen. Also almost no distortion. Only thing that stuck out is "falls short in bass".

Yep. I use a +3dB low shelf EQ around 25hz and they really shine. (this is a little boosted, I use them "for listening" ) I have heard IEMs for 10x (even 100x, once) the price that sound worse.

I don't quite understand what the comparison with the speakers and the couch is aiming for. If you've got a pair of headphones that has wild EQ coloration pre-baked in, you'd have a much harder time getting used to that and learning the pairs individual characteristics. Why would that not be something that could be present on headphones?

My point is just that as long as the response is neutral with low distortion, we are not looking for additional factors in a headphone that would make it more suitable for mixing. If the sound output works for mixing, then it does.

My point with speakers was that there are some things beyond frequency response and distortion that might make them better or worse for mixing, but that doesn't apply to headphones.

That would've been my next question, why there are IEMs that cost a couple of hundreds if those 20€ ones measure so damn well. So it's mainly just about durability and such? I mean, the test really doesn't leave much to be desired..

There's that, marketing, branding, reputation, service, warranty, etc. Some people are willing to pay a lot of money for a slightly different-sounding IEM.

Even I ran out and bought the Hexa after hearing the Gate. I can't say that you should spend the extra money, the differences are very subtle, but some people enjoy chasing those differences.

 

[kemmler3D]

Hmm, I've read the opposite: While over ear headphones will create different frequency changes due to your ear's structure, the pads of the headphone used, the position on the head (could even be different tomorrow than today if you place the band differently), even hair below your earpads and reflections within the headphones, the IEMs are just bypassing all of that. They start out straight in your inner ear and what you hear is just the actual frequency response coming from the device itself, without post-alterations.

Yes, but your brain is expecting to hear some alterations from your ear. I think IEMs could be less problematic because they don't partially bypass your ear the way over-ear headphones do, and again, not an expert on this, but I don't think there is a real free lunch with IEMs.

All that said, the Gate sounds pretty damn neutral to my ear.

 

[FireEmblem]

Small question regarding the Sennheiser HD650 and the SuperluxHD681 I have here at home, those are the distortion measurements for both from the reviews at ASR:


Superlux

Sennheiser

Do I understand this correctly, that Superlux has a 10x stronger distortion at around 20Hz? Even at 104dBSPL Sennheiser is only half the value?

Does this mean I can

a) boost the lows on the HD650 and
b) still have an overall more clean lowend?

 

[Jiraya369]

I know what hrtf is, I just don't believe it's as much of an issue as some like you do. My mixes with headphones translate absolutely well to everywhere. I just enjoy a wider stage on other headphones more, so I'm looking for an upgrade for just more joy, preferably without lacking in the low end.



Ofc you don't have to take my word for it, there are other, very famous people who do this. Andrew Scheps who mixed some of the most iconic bestseller albums of all times (Michael Jackson, Metallica) mixes entirely on headphones. He said if he gets to mix a new album, he will listen to it for only once in the beginning on studio monitors, then switch to headphones and do the entire mix there without going back and forth.

if you know hrtf and understand everything, then i dont understand the point of this post. You ask for neutral headphones yet go back to the harman curve measured on the ancient 711 and gras rigs. You say you understand something that complex yet you cant find out a better headphone. Ok let's say that is the case, but the post asks for neutral mixing headphones yet you want joy, so which is it? For mixing or for joy?

I dont like nor trust Scheps. He seems like one of the reasons why modern music sounds so bad, he only did Michael Jackson's live mixing and . You just use this one guy's example as gospel, the exception is never the rule buddy. Also, even if i were to trust his words, i did say that one can make exceptional mixes on headphones if they learn it, so i dont understand your point. Mixing is a skill, an art form. I can give you a pair of Genelec 8361As and W371s with Audeze LCD-5s for monitoring and give Bruce Swedien (Thriller album's engineer) a pair of apple earpods and he'd produce a better mix.

For headphones, the answer is always eq'ing to your HRTF preferences. I can give you the most perfect sounding headphone following the most perfect curve, but that curve would be made for an average number of people, if you're on the outside bounds, you wont like it.

Research HRTF some more. Then get a pair of FiiO FT1 Pro with a Topping DX3 Pro+ DAC. EQ it to the Harman target then adjust it to your preferences. Preferably going back and forth with a neutral reference like an Adam D3V or JBL 306P

 

[MaxwellsEq]

To confirm, in large professional music recording studios, headphones are not used for mixing. Sometimes, they are used for spot checking or comparisons.