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God of SINAD vs. reality we get from most available music files

krabapple

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9. The notion that you can pick any device ("CD player") you want and it would be transparent is just wrong. You need to measure to make sure this transparency is there. There are a ton of devices in the red category of my SINAD ratings which fall below your criteria:
index.php

In normal listening practice, using level matched nonpathological devices, DAC1 = DAC2. If you have to go to extraordinary lengths to hear differences -- even after training -- you've only proved that it's normally a nonissue.
 
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krabapple

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I don't know where Arny got his information. Analyzing true dynamic range requires distinguishing pure noise from music in the noise. This requires statistical analysis of the noise spectrum and correlating it with the music. I have never seen a commercial tool for this or any post from Arny indicating he knew how to do this. I am pretty sure I had this very argument with him.

Maybe he was just using an SPL meter and looking at the peak vs quiet segments. That is not a good method as the peak levels are level/amplification dependent.
Fielder (1982), who you have cited in this thread, determined his 'dynamic range requirement* for subjectively noise-free reproduction of music by measuring peak SPL of orchestras and live amplified music and comparing them to the 'minimum discernible level of white noise in a quiet listening situation'. This paper was one of prime arguments people like Bob Stuart used to claim that we 'need' high rez. I don't see such a statistical analysis + correlation as you describe, in the paper. Was Fielder wrong?

(*his answer btw was 118 dB -- 6dB more than dithered 16 bit can achieve)
 
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tmtomh

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You never will be able to tell it from those numbers being -80dBFS, with a real-life music recordings. Wasting time, wasting efforts. Rather make the thing reliable. The more simple the better. Keep it cool, no local overheated islands.

You keep saying stuff like this, but it’s not true.
 

Inner Space

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I do not know how the fashion of compressed to the nth degree became so entrenched ...
In my experience the ignoble truth is that it hides a bad mix. Indeed, if it's compressed to the nth degree, is it really mixed at all? I think some in the new generation are really talented, but the fashion+expectation momentum means it could be a while before a new normal.
 

j_j

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Fielder (1982), who you have cited in this thread, determined his 'dynamic range requirement* for subjectively noise-free reproduction of music 'by measuring peak SPL of orchestras and live amplified music and comparing them to the 'minimum discernible level of white noise in a quiet listening situation'. This paper was one of prime arguments people like Bob Stuart used to claim that we 'need' high rez. I don't see such a statistical analysis + correlation as you describe, in the paper. Was Fielder wrong?

(*his answer btw was 118 dB -- 6dB more than dithered 16 bit can achieve)

I must point out to everyone (Sorry, Krabs, but this isn't directed at you in particular) that the SPECTRUM of noise matters when you're comparing noise with the listening room.

The actual dynamic range of an orchestra is one thing, but we have to play this music back in our own spaces. I have access to a carefully controlled quiet space, but most people do not. Many people must listen in a space where the noise level is substantially above the threshold of hearing.
 
OP
pma

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A challenge - who can tell 8-bit file from 16-bit file?

The beloved Rickie Lee Jones, both files coded as 16-bit, but one of them is only in 8-bit resolution. Appropriate dither used. Here is the link, and I take only results from a DBT test, foobar ABX report that can be verified.


A new thread open for this test:
 
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Thomas_A

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Some of that is actually a subway line, on black coal miner, I'm told.
Could be. Somehow the LF pollution adds to a feeling of a live event. I have sometimes been thinking that LP LF is doing something similar. But perhaps thats only me, living too long in the city.
 

MCH

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I always thought that Jimmy Page intentionally boosted the noise of John Bonham's pedal when he remastered the studio albums in the 90s (example: since i've been loving you, but audible in many other songs). It was barely audible in the lps, and was used at the time to show "what an amazing detail" the new remasters had compared to the vinyls. Trick or unavoidable? I vote trick.
 

j_j

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Could be. Somehow the LF pollution adds to a feeling of a live event. I have sometimes been thinking that LP LF is doing something similar. But perhaps thats only me, living too long in the city.

Well, yes, the out-of-phase VLF that you get from the rumble (which is substantially in the vertical component) does in fact help create a sense of space. It's not just "noise" it also is moving the time arrival of the left and right back and forth a bit, effectively.
 

Blumlein 88

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Could be. Somehow the LF pollution adds to a feeling of a live event. I have sometimes been thinking that LP LF is doing something similar. But perhaps thats only me, living too long in the city.
I remember doing a minimalist two mic recording in a church. It had that wonderful sense of real space (it was a relatively quiet place), and I was very happy. The musicians heard it over my system. Their comments. "Why does it have that noise? The music doesn't sound as clean." I redid it the next week with close miking for each one and they loved it.
 
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pma

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Several years ago I made some experiments with empty groove noise added to the redbook 44.1/16 files. People have mostly preferred the versions with the added groove noise.
 

Thomas_A

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Several years ago I made some experiments with empty groove noise added to the redbook 44.1/16 files. People have mostly preferred the versions with the added groove noise.
Even if off-topic; I tried to go the other way - to reduce the out of phase LF both with lower tone arm mass


And using mono for the subs < 80 Hz.
 

theREALdotnet

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Several years ago I made some experiments with empty groove noise added to the redbook 44.1/16 files. People have mostly preferred the versions with the added groove noise.

No surprise, it sounds more groovy :)
 

GXAlan

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You never will be able to tell it from those numbers being -80dBFS, with a real-life music recordings. Wasting time, wasting efforts. Rather make the thing reliable. The more simple the better. Keep it cool, no local overheated islands.

There is science and experience. If amps are identical, operating linearly, etc. you cannot hear a difference. People hear differences some of which is sighted bias, but what if we assume that there are differences to “dac” sound signatures and amplifier sound “signatures”? After all, the original AES tube vs transistor comparison used soldered RC networks to really make sure each amplifier had its gain and frequency response matched.

A “we can agree” conclusion is that if there is a difference that is smaller than the threshold of lenient audibility but not the threshold of strict audibility, then we have to allow for the possibility than ABX differences can be challenging (because it is beyond the lenient audibility threshold) but might be audible over a period of time because the difference is not fully transparent.

This is the SINAD 90 DAC versus the SINAD 120 dac. If SINAD of 120 is needed across the entire chain for transparency, by definition, the SINAD 90 is not transparent. It’s very possible that the SINAD 90 DAC may be detectable in some cases since it’s not fully transparent. So from the standpoint of engineering, owning the car that goes faster than it is safe to travel on public roads standpoint, it’s not a complete waste.

We do know that the target SINAD is actually lower than 90, which you suggest may be closer to 80, based upon how “good” tube amps can sound.

I have actually sent Amir a SA600 from 1965 which has been restored with a minimum of resto-modding/hot rodding to test. It’s a close as possible to knowing what the SA600 would have sounded like and measured, had the test equipment existed back then. I am going to bet that it’s SINAD is high 60’s and I gotta say, it sounds pretty good. But it sort of makes sense to demand better performance if I am buying something in 2022. Otherwise I should just stick with my vintage gear.

Along those same lines, if your tweak cannot show up in a SINAD 140 APx555 (such as a cable), then that product is worthless. That’s one way we can separate “the possibility” versus the “impossibility”.

—-
I agree 100% that reliability is the first part. For all of the criticism that McIntosh gets, there are few pieces of solid state electronic gear from 1965 that still are useable today and command that kind of pricing.

I just think that reliability has been figured out — it’s just that consumers have fallen into the trap of subscriptions and disposable hardware and software consumption.

We also vote with our wallet. Just as I am more likely to buy a coffee from a friendly coffee shop versus a coffee shop whose owners may be harassing the neighboring cafes even if the actual baristas are great people, and even though the coffee beans at both coffee shops are sourced globally, I am also more likely to buy products from manufacturers with great customer service and community support as long as the products are also reliable and have good ergonomics.
 

j_j

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...

A “we can agree” conclusion is that if there is a difference that is smaller than the threshold of lenient audibility but not the threshold of strict audibility, then we have to allow for the possibility than ABX differences can be challenging (because it is beyond the lenient audibility threshold) but might be audible over a period of time because the difference is not fully transparent.

A thought that is wise to remember: Always look at the SPECTRUM of the error. The audibility of an error can spread over a very, very wide range of SINAD.

Now, "most likely" you'll see harmonics, etc, but not always, and IM that moves stuff down in frequency (say intermod between 18K and 19K that shows up at 1k, can be audible at annoyingly low levels.

So always, ALWAYS the error spectrum.
 

tomelex

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There is science and experience. If amps are identical, operating linearly, etc. you cannot hear a difference. People hear differences some of which is sighted bias, but what if we assume that there are differences to “dac” sound signatures and amplifier sound “signatures”? After all, the original AES tube vs transistor comparison used soldered RC networks to really make sure each amplifier had its gain and frequency response matched.

A “we can agree” conclusion is that if there is a difference that is smaller than the threshold of lenient audibility but not the threshold of strict audibility, then we have to allow for the possibility than ABX differences can be challenging (because it is beyond the lenient audibility threshold) but might be audible over a period of time because the difference is not fully transparent.

This is the SINAD 90 DAC versus the SINAD 120 dac. If SINAD of 120 is needed across the entire chain for transparency, by definition, the SINAD 90 is not transparent. It’s very possible that the SINAD 90 DAC may be detectable in some cases since it’s not fully transparent. So from the standpoint of engineering, owning the car that goes faster than it is safe to travel on public roads standpoint, it’s not a complete waste.

We do know that the target SINAD is actually lower than 90, which you suggest may be closer to 80, based upon how “good” tube amps can sound.

I have actually sent Amir a SA600 from 1965 which has been restored with a minimum of resto-modding/hot rodding to test. It’s a close as possible to knowing what the SA600 would have sounded like and measured, had the test equipment existed back then. I am going to bet that it’s SINAD is high 60’s and I gotta say, it sounds pretty good. But it sort of makes sense to demand better performance if I am buying something in 2022. Otherwise I should just stick with my vintage gear.

Along those same lines, if your tweak cannot show up in a SINAD 140 APx555 (such as a cable), then that product is worthless. That’s one way we can separate “the possibility” versus the “impossibility”.

—-
I agree 100% that reliability is the first part. For all of the criticism that McIntosh gets, there are few pieces of solid state electronic gear from 1965 that still are useable today and command that kind of pricing.

I just think that reliability has been figured out — it’s just that consumers have fallen into the trap of subscriptions and disposable hardware and software consumption.

We also vote with our wallet. Just as I am more likely to buy a coffee from a friendly coffee shop versus a coffee shop whose owners may be harassing the neighboring cafes even if the actual baristas are great people, and even though the coffee beans at both coffee shops are sourced globally, I am also more likely to buy products from manufacturers with great customer service and community support as long as the products are also reliable and have good ergonomics.


As long as we are talking science here, "There is science and experience. If amps are identical, operating linearly, etc. you cannot hear a difference" then i assume by etc. you mean and has the same response into the real world reactive load. Not derailing the thread here and so no need for you to answer if you agree.
 

amirm

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Fielder (1982), who you have cited in this thread, determined his 'dynamic range requirement* for subjectively noise-free reproduction of music 'by measuring peak SPL of orchestras and live amplified music and comparing them to the 'minimum discernible level of white noise in a quiet listening situation'. This paper was one of prime arguments people like Bob Stuart used to claim that we 'need' high rez. I don't see such a statistical analysis + correlation as you describe, in the paper. Was Fielder wrong?

(*his answer btw was 118 dB -- 6dB more than dithered 16 bit can achieve)
Not at all. Both Fielder who have published peer reviewed papers on this are demonstrating what you need for an absolutely transparent channel (transmission/storage) for audio.

That is a different thing than having a piece of music and attempting to determine what is digital silence, and what is the real noise floor of the content.

Container vs content.
 

amirm

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In normal listening practice, using level matched nonpathological devices, DAC1 = DAC2. If you have to go to extraordinary lengths to hear differences -- even after training -- you've only proved that it's normally a nonissue.
We don't have to settle for "normal listening" when we can have perfection for all content, all people and all situations.
 
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