GLM Vs Dirac Vs ARC

[Absolute]

Slight threadsurrection, but do any/all of these perform timing/step correction in some fashion? I've always worried about subs hanging off of a 2 channel setup (say RME ADI 2 DAC) that don't quite align with the sats from a timing perspective. Not phase, timing. The classic example of a kick drum, and that it produces a high frequency slap along with the low frequency thump. If they arrive at the same time, it's an experience to behold. Some will often describe bass in a speaker as soft or slow, when it doesn't.

If this were a real-world problem then no multi-sub setup would sound good. In theory it sounds nice with perfect timing, but in reality a low-frequency cycle takes so much longer to produce that the timing-part makes no sense.
In addition to that, we're practically transient-deaf in the lower frequencies, requiring several tens of milliseconds to even register a low-frequency sound.

 

[Xyrium]

If this were a real-world problem then no multi-sub setup would sound good. In theory it sounds nice with perfect timing, but in reality a low-frequency cycle takes so much longer to produce that the timing-part makes no sense.
In addition to that, we're practically transient-deaf in the lower frequencies, requiring several tens of milliseconds to even register a low-frequency sound.

Unfortunately, they frequently do not. Just go through any number of threads in various audio forums an search for "sub integration". YOu will find many, many folks with issues. Perhaps some just want to hear a thump, or rumble, while others can discern the difference between the timing of the various frequencies that an instrument creates and we perceive holistically. Different strokes, it's all good...

 

[onion]

@onion Have you tried other subs with the monitors? Currently I have 8340 * 3 as LCR and 8330 as surrounds with 2 SB 12 NSD subs which are 12". I have a Yamaha RX-V775. I am not so happy with Yamaha Bass Management and integration. So I am currently thinking if I should go for Genelec 7360 subs (but super expensive) or stick to SVS subs and get Denon 3700H which Amirm has measured. Which change will bring more sonic improvement is my question. On the other hand, I am still thinking if 7350 with a bit more volume will equal 7360.

What are your thoughts? - Are Genelec subs better than other subs? Are they worth the price and do their bass integration worth the money compared to AVR bass integration with non-svs subs? And at the last, how different are 7350 to 7360. Would 7350 be sufficient?

I don't have the Genelecs in a surround setup, just a stereo setup in a music room (around 4m by 4.5m).
I have some MK subs in a movie room that is significantly larger. I don't think the 2 Genelecs subs would be adequate for LFE in this room (although to be fair, they are cheaper than the MK subs). The 7360 is significantly larger than the 7350 and extends lower too. I don't think the 7350 can be a replacement for the 7360.

I don't know that the Genelec subs are audibly better than other brands. I'm in the Genelec ecosystem and GLM allows control of multiple sub quite easilys; but it isn't the only way.

The intention for the music room is to add one or two more 7350 subs as per the Earl Geddes school of thought on bass management

How large is the room? This would probably be the biggest determinant on what you need.

 

[Sprint]

I don't have the Genelecs in a surround setup, just a stereo setup in a music room (around 4m by 4.5m).
I have some MK subs in a movie room that is significantly larger. I don't think the 2 Genelecs subs would be adequate for LFE in this room (although to be fair, they are cheaper than the MK subs). The 7360 is significantly larger than the 7350 and extends lower too. I don't think the 7350 can be a replacement for the 7360.

I don't know that the Genelec subs are audibly better than other brands. I'm in the Genelec ecosystem and GLM allows control of multiple sub quite easilys; but it isn't the only way.

The intention for the music room is to add one or two more 7350 subs as per the Earl Geddes school of thought on bass management

How large is the room? This would probably be the biggest determinant on what you need.

@onion Thanks! the listening area is 4,5 meters * 5 meters. the listening distance is around 3,5 meters. Here is a picture of my room. The left side opens to dining area which is another 3 meters * 3 meters.

 

[onion]

@onion Thanks! the listening area is 4,5 meters * 5 meters. the listening distance is around 3,5 meters. Here is a picture of my room. The left side opens to dining area which is another 3 meters * 3 meters.

I don't think the 7350 would be adequate for movies and multichannel in that room and would be a step down from what. you have. A pair of 7360s would be ok and would also effectively turn your lt and rt 8340s into a good full-range speaker system for stereo music (phase and TOF alignment via GLM). That would be around £3.6k though.

If I was in your position (with two subs already in the room), I'd probably be looking at mini-DSP for subwoofer integration and use GLM for the other speakers.

 

[Sprint]

I don't think the 7350 would be adequate for movies and multichannel in that room and would be a step down from what. you have. A pair of 7360s would be ok and would also effectively turn your lt and rt 8340s into a good full-range speaker system for stereo music (phase and TOF alignment via GLM). That would be around £3.6k though.

If I was in your position (with two subs already in the room), I'd probably be looking at mini-DSP for subwoofer integration and use GLM for the other speakers.

@onion Thanks a lot! that helps a lot to get your thoughts. One quick question though. Would you recommend minidsp only for subwoofer with or without Dirac. For speakers I will continue with GLM.

 

[onion]

I'm not sure about the answer to that question - depends on the cost difference between the two. If you get the with-Dirac option, you can compare for. yourself how well it works against GLM for the mains.

On reflection, I think RoomPerfect is a bit better than GLM for a 2:2 setup. The calibration process requires measurements from multiple random points in the room after measurement at the listening position. Whatever it does with this information, this seems to result in a more even level and frequency response across the wider listening area. I prefer both to Dirac but that's because I'm too lazy to learn it and only ever tried it with an Arcam where the Dirac version did not not have decent bass management.

My current GLM measurements are below - the null in the 7360 from 22 - 28Hz is compensated for by the 7350. Both subs are in phase with their respective speakers but out of phase with each other which I think helps smooth the bass further.

 

[Sprint]

I'm not sure about the answer to that question - depends on the cost difference between the two. If you get the with-Dirac option, you can compare for. yourself how well it works against GLM for the mains.

On reflection, I think RoomPerfect is a bit better than GLM for a 2:2 setup. The calibration process requires measurements from multiple random points in the room after measurement at the listening position. Whatever it does with this information, this seems to result in a more even level and frequency response across the wider listening area. I prefer both to Dirac but that's because I'm too lazy to learn it and only ever tried it with an Arcam where the Dirac version did not not have decent bass management.

My current GLM measurements are below - the null in the 7360 from 22 - 28Hz is compensated for by the 7350. Both subs are in phase with their respective speakers but out of phase with each other which I think helps smooth the bass further.

View attachment 94856

Great measurements, thanks for posting. I will check if I can post my measurements (done from my wife's windows laptop as my Mac could not run GLM 3.0).

Minidsp with and without Dirac is around 400 euros difference in price. With a UMIK mike, remote and DDRC - it comes to around 650 euros.

So I am thinking if it makes sense to upgrade 2014 Yamaha + minidsp with 2020 Denon x3700H - around 1000 Euros which has the multiple subwoofer integration / management via a 20USD app plus all new Dolby formats. As far as I remember the Audyssey came quite close to Dirac when Amirm measured. In my case, it is anyway only for subwoofer as GLM will be still used. I have another thread on this here where it was mentioned Denon AVR made minidsp redundant.

BTW, are you using any RCA XLR adapters or do you run XLR throughout?

 

[Hugh Jass]

I have a more basic question on these room correction apps. Is ARC actually free to download? It seems to be. Whereas Dirac is $500. Haven’t looked at the others. So if you have a laptop for streaming, it sounds like ARC is a major upgrade in value, no?

 

[tetragrammaton]

Unfortunately, they frequently do not. Just go through any number of threads in various audio forums an search for "sub integration". YOu will find many, many folks with issues. Perhaps some just want to hear a thump, or rumble, while others can discern the difference between the timing of the various frequencies that an instrument creates and we perceive holistically. Different strokes, it's all good...

This is a bit disingenuous, since many "audio forum folk" who have issues with sub integration tend to have
1) terrible room geometry
2) poor speaker positioning based on audiophile voodoo
3) poor subwoofer placement
4) poor listening position placement
5) their "subwoofer integration" stops at setting a crossover knob on a subwoofer (this one's SUPER COMMON, especially among those who claim they can discern inaudible timing differences)

 

[dominikz]

Which one is better?

I never tried GLM or Anthem Room Correction (ARC), but a while ago I did compare the following in detail:

• Dirac Live for Studio
• IK Multimedia ARC System 3 (NOTE: This is not the same as Anthem ARC!)
• Sonarworks Reference 4 Studio edition
• MathAudio Room EQ
• JuiceHiFi Audiolense XO
• Correction filters manually generated in REW

My investigations are documented here: link to thread.

IMHO all of the room corrections tools I tested can be made to achieve pretty good results, but there are definitely significant differences in how easy it is to get a good response at first attempt (assuming very little prior knowledge of the subject), and in how configurable/flexible each of them are.

In the end I found I have the most control with REW so that's what I use now; but it definitely took some time to understand what works well and what doesn't - it is very easy to overdo it. All of the investigations I did with other room correction tools helped guide me, as well as reading dr. Toole's amazing book.

Perhaps you will find some of it useful!

EDIT: Sorry, just now noticed this is a very old thread and probably obsolete by now!

 

[Sprint]

Thanks! I am happy so far with what GLM is doing. I sent my measurements to Genelec reps and they said that the FR curve is looking good . I want to rerun using 4.2 but will do it sometimes next days.