Give me a reason to keep using these balanced cables

[bachatero]

I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.

A few days ago, I got some Kali LP-6v2s because they were the cheapest studio monitors that were just about perfectly flat without being junk, AKA the best value. They're sitting at my fancy desk setup right now which has an exorbitant amount of EMF, which causes absolutely unacceptable levels of noise using cheap generic TS 1/4" or RCA cables plugged into my Motu M2. Fortunately, a few months ago I got a super special RCA to XLR "balanced" shielded cable from a surplus store at a screamingly low price. I tried that and now the noise is to an acceptable level! But it was just acceptable. Since these speakers are about .8m away from me, I could still hear a little noise when my room was quiet.

To fix this, I ordered some balanced TRS Monoprice Premier cables that reeked of quality despite being the cheapest option I could find. Hoping to live noise-free, I swapped the super special RCA-XLRs for the Monoprices. Womp womp. The noise was still there. I did a little more testing and it seems like my TRS balanced cables do actually make a difference, but it's marginal. By using TRS instead of RCA, I can reduce the gain of the speakers to the absolute minimum to take full advantage of the M2's dynamic range. Further, I do actually get 1-2dB less noise as measured by my sound meter from that decrease in speaker gain. This provides evidence (but does not prove) that the remaining noise is simply the self-noise generated by the Kalis and I can't just get rid of that without buying a different speaker.

Considering my Monoprice cables were $28 in total, would you say it's worth it to keep them or is it better to return them?

 

[DVDdoug]

It never hurts to have extra cables/adapters!

 

[Brian Hall]

What is your full setup? There may be a simple solution.

 

[Chrispy]

I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.

A few days ago, I got some Kali LP-6v2s because they were the cheapest studio monitors that were just about perfectly flat without being junk, AKA the best value. They're sitting at my fancy desk setup right now which has an exorbitant amount of EMF, which causes absolutely unacceptable levels of noise using cheap generic TS 1/4" or RCA cables plugged into my Motu M2. Fortunately, a few months ago I got a super special RCA to XLR "balanced" shielded cable from a surplus store at a screamingly low price. I tried that and now the noise is to an acceptable level! But it was just acceptable. Since these speakers are about .8m away from me, I could still hear a little noise when my room was quiet.

To fix this, I ordered some balanced TRS Monoprice Premier cables that reeked of quality despite being the cheapest option I could find. Hoping to live noise-free, I swapped the super special RCA-XLRs for the Monoprices. Womp womp. The noise was still there. I did a little more testing and it seems like my TRS balanced cables do actually make a difference, but it's marginal. By using TRS instead of RCA, I can reduce the gain of the speakers to the absolute minimum to take full advantage of the M2's dynamic range. Further, I do actually get 1-2dB less noise as measured by my sound meter from that decrease in speaker gain. This provides evidence (but does not prove) that the remaining noise is simply the self-noise generated by the Kalis and I can't just get rid of that without buying a different speaker.

Considering my Monoprice cables were $28 in total, would you say it's worth it to keep them or is it better to return them?

Why do you think the noise is in your cabling rather inherent to your gear?

 

[Brian Hall]

It never hurts to have extra cables/adapters!

Actually it can. (Looking at the 12 stuffed medium and large sized storage boxes sorted by cable/adapter type taking up space in a large closet that I am afraid to part with).

Why do I still have a box of various VGA/Display port cables?

 

[Blumlein 88]

I would think the noise left is just from the speaker probably. Those Monoprice cables are well shielded and quiet. I wouldn't switch to unbalanced if you have balanced cables to use. If you have one unbalanced set that are quiet enough that is a decision only you can make as to whether the $28 is important to you. Just on the general principle of keeping the rig noise free from other sources of interference in the future, I'd keep them.

 

[bachatero]

Why do you think the noise is in your cabling rather inherent to your gear?

I came to this conclusion because I tested the cheap & generic RCA/TS cables which were unshielded. Those had truly horrible signal to noise ratios, and every time I typed or click my mouse I could hear hisses and pops coming because they seemingly became antennas. On the other hand, my shielded RCA-XLR cable worked a lot better with just a little bit of added noise, and judging by its thick construction and "double shielded" claims, that shielding should have been what's making the difference. Finally, although there was just a little noise with the RCA-XLR, there was zero (0) with the Monoprice balanced ones.

Note that "zero noise" is just "zero noise added" because even with no cable attached, the same underlying noise from the speakers remains. Also note that unlike some other setups, I have zero ground loops because my house has code-compliant earthing and everything goes to the same outlet ground point.

Actually it can. (Looking at the 12 stuffed medium and large sized storage boxes sorted by cable/adapter type taking up space in a large closet that I am afraid to part with).

Why do I still have a box of various VGA/Display port cables?

This is exactly what I'm thinking. I already have so much stuff sitting in boxes like parallel port cables and I don't need anything more!

What is your full setup? There may be a simple solution.

Linux desktop -> Motu M2 -> Kali LP-6v2 and that's it. However, I also have 4 monitors, 2 UPSes, and a bunch of USB goodies so I can also plug in a laptop simultaneously and share the keyboard/mouse.

I would think the noise left is just from the speaker probably. Those Monoprice cables are well shielded and quiet. I wouldn't switch to unbalanced if you have balanced cables to use. If you have one unbalanced set that are quiet enough that is a decision only you can make as to whether the $28 is important to you. Just on the general principle of keeping the rig noise free from other sources of interference in the future, I'd keep them.

I think this is what I'm going to do. I just love how these cables look and feel and even though the improvements are marginal, it's significant enough to satisfy me as well as become more than marginal if I ever upgrade to speakers with less self-noise.

 

[Chrispy]

I came to this conclusion because I tested the cheap & generic RCA/TS cables which were unshielded. Those had truly horrible signal to noise ratios, and every time I typed or click my mouse I could hear hisses and pops coming because they seemingly became antennas. On the other hand, my shielded RCA-XLR cable worked a lot better with just a little bit of added noise, and judging by its thick construction and "double shielded" claims, that shielding should have been what's making the difference. Finally, although there was just a little noise with the RCA-XLR, there was zero (0) with the Monoprice balanced ones.

Where are the measurements of such cable differences? It sounds more like the noises were coming from your gear rather than the cabling in any case....

 

[bachatero]

I never actually bothered measuring the cable's exact differences like in the ASR reviews. But I did know that at 0dB gain, the noise induced was loud enough to be annoying and consisted of a low level buzz plus pops/crackles from sporadic RF emissions from USB and Wifi.

 

[Chrispy]

I never actually bothered measuring the cable's exact differences like in the ASR reviews. But I did know that at 0dB gain, the noise induced was loud enough to be annoying and consisted of a low level buzz plus pops/crackles from sporadic RF emissions from USB and Wifi.

Still sounds like your gear more than the cables.

 

[bachatero]

Still sounds like your gear more than the cables.

I'm not sure what you mean. Cable noise is only a function of the cable's insulation/balancing and what emissions the surrounding gear emits. So although the computer gear is causing the symptom of high cable noise, it's irrelevant because I will not change my desk setup just to use a cheap & generic unshielded cable; therefore, the only remaining factor here is cable insulation/balancing.

Are you talking about speaker self-noise instead?

 

[Chrispy]

I'm not sure what you mean. Although it's true that (almost) all the noise here was from the cables, cable noise is just a function of the cable's insulation/balancing and what emissions the surrounding gear emits. So although the computer gear is causing the symptom of high cable noise, it's irrelevant because I will not change my desk setup just to use a cheap & generic unshielded cable; therefore, the only remaining factor here is cable insulation/balancing.

Are you talking about speaker self-noise instead?

Hard to imagine you have so much "emissions the surrounding gear omits" let alone how a cable "generates" noise. I think you've been reading too much audiophilia type info.

 

[bachatero]

I hate audiophilia too, but my desk really does have tons of noise. It's right behind a bunch of kitchen appliances in addition to having multiple monitors, lights, computers, 10 gigabit copper ethernet cables, USB cables, backup batteries, and some more extra stuff. It also doesn't allow many options other than to run the audio cables right next to all these noise emitters. It was so bad the unshielded cables could serve as white noise generators for meditation.

 

[AlfaNovember]

As a test, would it be possible to power down and unplug all the nearby electronics, one by one, leaving the audio on? Listen & measure as you go. Or, as a separate test, leave everything as-is, but plug the M2 into a different source, like a battery-powered laptop or raspberry pi?

What kind of USB port is the M2 plugged into? Is it a blue v3 highspeed one? Try it in a slower black v2 if available. Maybe, possibly, this might be a situation where a USB optoisolator might help, although I'm generally skeptical of such devices, especially when marketed in an audio magic-box context.

 

[kemmler3D]

I say return the cables just because you can. I don't seem to be able to part with cables for any reason. It bugs my wife.

 

[Andysu]

be calm , do a video of this noise as we can't hear what this noise sounds like , do video , make sure video is landscape , you can rant about the noise and be quiet also , so we can see if anyone here can solve it ?
oh , also show other more of the system , ( rare myself my xlr balanced produces noise )

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

As a test, would it be possible to power down and unplug all the nearby electronics, one by one, leaving the audio on? Listen & measure as you go. Or, as a separate test, leave everything as-is, but plug the M2 into a different source, like a battery-powered laptop or raspberry pi?

I would say move the Kalis to a different room and test them there with a minimal set up (and known quiet source), first. Then go with a component by component approach in their normal place.

IOW, eliminate the Kalis as a source of the problem first, because that might be a bit time saver in tracking things down. If they are fine, then doing all the work to see which components are doing something at what level will definitely be worth doing.

 

[antcollinet]

I never actually bothered measuring the cable's exact differences like in the ASR reviews. But I did know that at 0dB gain, the noise induced was loud enough to be annoying and consisted of a low level buzz plus pops/crackles from sporadic RF emissions from USB and Wifi.

This doesn't sound like RF to me. It sounds like common or garden ground loop noise.

If you can tell us your complete system interconnect chain there may be some way to fix it.

Further - I think you are using unbalanced to balanced connections. If so if you use the correct wiring for the cables (including a balancing resistor at the source end) it may be possible to make a dramatic improvement.

EG, see the wiring diagram here (first image) from @staticV3

WiiM Ultra

In case anyone’s missed it, WiiM have put up a poll asking what people think a reasonable price would be. The options are £350, £400, and £450.

audiosciencereview.com

 

[ninetylol]

Sounds like a ground loop. Is your source balanced? If not using unbalanced to balanced Adapters just reduces the gain on the speaker (thus lower noise) but you still have a ground loop.

 

[bachatero]

Sounds like a ground loop. Is your source balanced? If not using unbalanced to balanced Adapters just reduces the gain on the speaker (thus lower noise) but you still have a ground loop.

My Motu M2 IS balanced, but only for TRS. For RCA, it's of course unbalanced. My RCA-XLR cable luckily seems to be one of the "proper" ones which uses the ground as the opposing signal, essentially delivering a signal with balanced levels of noise but unbalanced levels of signal.

I'll see if I can do a proper test of unshielded vs. shielded cables in my case and get a video. However, I may have to keep the Monoprice cables anyway because the RCA-XLRs are contingent on an RCA output, which goes out the window if I were to use any interface which only supported TRS.

As an appetizing treat before the video, check out the photo evidence of just how many cables the Kalis have to put up with.