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GGNTKT Model M1

roland{at}GGNTKT

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Hi there,

yes, Model M1 (S-Version) got reviewed in the latest issue of the renowned journal SOUND&RECORDING. I was in the lab together with Anselm Goertz, who did the measurements and he also took them at his listening room.

I can share the doc, but unfortunately its in German: https://ggntkt.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/SR_01-2021_ModelM1.pdf

There is also a new preset coming which gives you a new cardioid mode: The new cardioid-sub mode gives you real cancelation in the bass area (<200 Hz), but we had to trade of a lot of bass power, since the rear driver do all the cancellation work. The "old" mode ist now cardiod-low which is mostly unchanged. So you have the choice of how low you beed the cardioid to work or how much SPL you need.
 

thewas

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Hi there,

yes, Model M1 (S-Version) got reviewed in the latest issue of the renowned journal SOUND&RECORDING. I was in the lab together with Anselm Goertz, who did the measurements and he also took them at his listening room.

I can share the doc, but unfortunately its in German: https://ggntkt.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/SR_01-2021_ModelM1.pdf

There is also a new preset coming which gives you a new cardioid mode: The new cardioid-sub mode gives you real cancelation in the bass area (<200 Hz), but we had to trade of a lot of bass power, since the rear driver do all the cancellation work. The "old" mode ist now cardiod-low which is mostly unchanged. So you have the choice of how low you beed the cardioid to work or how much SPL you need.
As expected very good measurements and also very interesting review about the listening comparison of the two modes, just tell them to change the title of the document "Clay Paky Xtylos" and the subtitle "Der Softube Grand Channel begeistert mit exzellenten Klangeigenschaften" as it seems to be from some copy and paste of older documents.
 

MarsianC#

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So you have the choice of how low you beed the cardioid to work or how much SPL you need.
Great!

PS: Just curious, is the DSP/DAC running at 44.1 kHz? Or is there a tweeter resonance to avoid above 18 kHz?
PPS: Will there be an option without cardiod (I know, I know...) for maximum SPL?
 
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CMB

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I still think that a review and measurements made by Erin or Armin might be something valuable for interested clients and for GGNTKT itself.
Both, Armin or Erin are known to be competent, trustful, independent and Erin could even further comment on his subjective impressions versus his experience with Dutch & Dutch 8c (which I understand is a direct competitor).
The ASR site with its community of expertise in certainly trusted and followed by many around the globe.
The costs of insurance and shipping might be recovered very quickly.
@ roland{at}GGNTKT Why not send the pair which should have been returned by SOUND&RECORDING? ;-)
 
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q3cpma

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Hi there,

yes, Model M1 (S-Version) got reviewed in the latest issue of the renowned journal SOUND&RECORDING. I was in the lab together with Anselm Goertz, who did the measurements and he also took them at his listening room.

I can share the doc, but unfortunately its in German: https://ggntkt.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/SR_01-2021_ModelM1.pdf

There is also a new preset coming which gives you a new cardioid mode: The new cardioid-sub mode gives you real cancelation in the bass area (<200 Hz), but we had to trade of a lot of bass power, since the rear driver do all the cancellation work. The "old" mode ist now cardiod-low which is mostly unchanged. So you have the choice of how low you beed the cardioid to work or how much SPL you need.
Great! IMD may be the only suboptimal parameter a 3-way design could improve, but that would render the horn and incredible compression driver a bit useless.
Even more impressive when you consider the price compare to D&D/Kii. Only lacking correct subwoofer integration and maybe a future room correction module/application to reach perfection.
 

LTig

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Great! IMD may be the only suboptimal parameter a 3-way design could improve, but that would render the horn and incredible compression driver a bit useless.
Even more impressive when you consider the price compare to D&D/Kii. Only lacking correct subwoofer integration and maybe a future room correction module/application to reach perfection.
Looking at the S&R measurements of the Neumann KH310 it's FR is just as flat and goes deeper (30 Hz vs 34/42 Hz) , it can play bass louder (104 dB vs 98/92 dB), it's noise is much lower (16.5 vs 29 dBA @ 10 cm). Directivity is higher though but this is not a criterium of SQ. It lacks the sophisticated DSP features but it's €3k cheaper.
 

richard12511

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Directivity is higher though but this is not a criterium of SQ.

Is it not, though? Toole lists wider dispersion as his second most important factor (after flat LW) for predicting listener preference. Toole also predicted that the Salon2 would beat the M2 in a preference test, despite the M2s better FR and directivity, simply because the Salon2 has wider dispersion. His prediction was correct. We've also got 2-3 people on this forum that own both the Salon2 and Genelec 8351b, and they all prefer the Salon2, even crossed to subs. I'm not saying some people might not prefer more narrow directivity(there were 2 people who consistently preferred the M2), but that in a "general", or "average" case, wider is better.

Looking at the S&R measurements of the Neumann KH310 it's FR is just as flat and goes deeper (30 Hz vs 34/42 Hz) , it can play bass louder (104 dB vs 98/92 dB), it's noise is much lower (16.5 vs 29 dBA @ 10 cm). It lacks the sophisticated DSP features but it's €3k cheaper.

M1 controls directivity to a lower frequency, but yeah, the KH310 is probably one of the best value speakers out there.
 

LTig

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Is it not, though? Toole lists wider dispersion as his second most important factor (after flat LW) for predicting listener preference. Toole also predicted that the Salon2 would beat the M2 in a preference test, despite the M2s better FR and directivity, simply because the Salon2 has wider dispersion. His prediction was correct. We've also got 2-3 people on this forum that own both the Salon2 and Genelec 8351b, and they all prefer the Salon2, even crossed to subs. I'm not saying some people might not prefer more narrow directivity(there were 2 people who consistently preferred the M2), but that in a "general", or "average" case, wider is better.
I know that some people prefer narrow directivity, that's why I think wide directivity is not a real factor for SQ. I'm sure it depends also on the characteristic of the room (like dry or reflective), the type of recording and the music style.
 

richard12511

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I know that some people prefer narrow directivity, that's why I think wide directivity is not a real factor for SQ. I'm sure it depends also on the characteristic of the room (like dry or reflective), the type of recording and the music style.

I can agree on an individual basis. I was thinking more from the manufacturer perspective. "Better" would be "better on average", though targeting a minority niche can also be a great strategy(which is what my JTR speakers definitely do).
 

thewas

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Toole also predicted that the Salon2 would beat the M2 in a preference test, despite the M2s better FR and directivity, simply because the Salon2 has wider dispersion. His prediction was correct.
Please keep in mind that afaik the famous blind comparison test was (imho unfortunately) done also in mono, I personally know quite many people that prefer narrower directivity = more direct sound, I think it has also to do with the listening experience, the huge but more vague "sound cloud" of wider directivity tends to impress more less experienced listeners.
 
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roland{at}GGNTKT

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PS: Just curious, is the DSP/DAC running at 44.1 kHz? Or is there a tweeter resonance to avoid above 18 kHz?
The DSP is running @48 kHz, so everything is being sampled to that frequency. This way we save a lot of processing power, which gives us lower latency and more flexebility for advanced filtering. We also listened to 96 kHz but could't find any audible advantage in blind testing, so we made that trade off.

Most compression driver roll off @16...18 kHz. You can EQ this – in fact we do – but it will run into limiters if you add 10-12 dB.

PPS: Will there be an option without cardiod (I know, I know...) for maximum SPL?

There is still the "monopol" mode which is obviosly none-cardioid and gives you full power of the 3x 7" midbass drivers.

I still think that a review and measurements made by Erin or Armin might be something valuable for interested clients and for GGNTKT itself.
Both, Armin or Erin are known to be competent, trustful, independent and Erin could even further comment on his subjective impressions versus his experience with Dutch & Dutch 8c (which I understand is a direct competitor).
The ASR site with its community of expertise in certainly trusted and followed by many around the globe.
The costs of insurance and shipping might be recovered very quickly.
@ roland{at}GGNTKT Why not send the pair which should have been returned by SOUND&RECORDING? ;-)

We share a lot of very detailed data, also measured by 3rd parties. Especially with the Klippel NFS (which Armin and Erin also uses), there won't be any new data. So the only argument left is another validation by another party using the same tools. I see your point, but as for now it's not on my list of top priorities. But I'll stay in contact with @hardisj any maybe upcoming Model M2 might me a candidate.

Looking at the S&R measurements of the Neumann KH310 it's FR is just as flat and goes deeper (30 Hz vs 34/42 Hz) , it can play bass louder (104 dB vs 98/92 dB), it's noise is much lower (16.5 vs 29 dBA @ 10 cm). Directivity is higher though but this is not a criterium of SQ. It lacks the sophisticated DSP features but it's €3k cheaper.

Well, this will always be the case when comparing boutique products to mass production.

But to be fair with the objective criteria – Model M1 is only about half the size, mostly linear-phase and has some advantages because of its cardioid radiation pattern. Not to mention the aesthetics and the wide range of customization. So there are options and products for everyone.


Is it not, though? Toole lists wider dispersion as his second most important factor (after flat LW) for predicting listener preference. Toole also predicted that the Salon2 would beat the M2 in a preference test, despite the M2s better FR and directivity, simply because the Salon2 has wider dispersion. His prediction was correct. We've also got 2-3 people on this forum that own both the Salon2 and Genelec 8351b, and they all prefer the Salon2, even crossed to subs. I'm not saying some people might not prefer more narrow directivity(t.

I guess there is no right or wrong with the degree of directivity. It just has to fit to your listening distance, room and taste. As for Model M1 it's meant to be close to the listener (<3m), so we decided to go for a very wide horizontal dispersion. So there is still much direct sound but also a wider sweet spot. But sitting more far away (>4m) in a non-dry room, might lead to more narrow directivity. It's also a matter of taste – some prefer more "liveliness", some better "localization". In my experience a wide dispersion pattern combined with right room treatment works out very well in most homes.
 

DJBonoBobo

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Soniclife

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@roland{at}GGNTKT Do you have any in room measurements of the M1 in different modes, I'm particular interested in the waterfall and time decay type measurements. I've been wondering if the cardioid modes make a measurable change here or not, as the speaker effectively* dumps less energy into the room between 200 and 500hz in these modes.

* The speaker generates the same or more total energy to generate the cardioid, but some of it immediately cancels out.
 
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q3cpma

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Toole also predicted that the Salon2 would beat the M2 in a preference test, despite the M2s better FR and directivity, simply because the Salon2 has wider dispersion.
This comparison as an argument for wide directivity has been debunked more than few times. Mono listening and the vastly different designs of these speakers giving the Salon obvious IMD and room interaction advantages due to the large and closer to the ground woofer array have too much importance to make a conclusion.

I don't have any measurements for the Salon 2, but here's the M2. IMD in the 1-6 kHz band is quite high compared to the 8361A or KH420A.
index.php


I also don't remember wide directivity being included in the Toole/Olive score, which would point to their uncertainty about the question.
 

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phoenixdogfan

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Hi there,

yes, Model M1 (S-Version) got reviewed in the latest issue of the renowned journal SOUND&RECORDING. I was in the lab together with Anselm Goertz, who did the measurements and he also took them at his listening room.

I can share the doc, but unfortunately its in German: https://ggntkt.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/SR_01-2021_ModelM1.pdf

There is also a new preset coming which gives you a new cardioid mode: The new cardioid-sub mode gives you real cancelation in the bass area (<200 Hz), but we had to trade of a lot of bass power, since the rear driver do all the cancellation work. The "old" mode ist now cardiod-low which is mostly unchanged. So you have the choice of how low you beed the cardioid to work or how much SPL you need.
Is there a program that can give us a translation of the article?
 

thewas

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Sancus

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Is it not, though? Toole lists wider dispersion as his second most important factor (after flat LW) for predicting listener preference. Toole also predicted that the Salon2 would beat the M2 in a preference test, despite the M2s better FR and directivity, simply because the Salon2 has wider dispersion. His prediction was correct. We've also got 2-3 people on this forum that own both the Salon2 and Genelec 8351b, and they all prefer the Salon2, even crossed to subs. I'm not saying some people might not prefer more narrow directivity(there were 2 people who consistently preferred the M2), but that in a "general", or "average" case, wider is better.

My problem with the "lets just make everything as wide as possible for best quality" argument is that I think it only holds for mono and stereo. And if you've tied yourself to stereo then you already lost the high-end sound quality game, so why would you believe you're still playing it? ;) Toole also predicts the superiority of multi-channel even with upmixing alone, after all.

Most of the detailed Salon2 vs 8351B impressions I've seen came from @echopraxia and which room he put them in seemed to be a big factor there. It's been noted that floorstanders with multiple woofers have a room interaction and bass smoothness advantage, and that advantage is at its most significant when you are using few subs and only two speakers.

So basically what I am saying is that "go for the widest dispersion" is a bandaid over stereo flaws that may be a disadvantage for studio and multi-channel use cases.
 

windwolf447

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Celestion, such a great name ! When I was young and get started in hifi hobby, Celestion speakers were on the short list of every hifi nuts, alongside Tannoy, the first Kefs, french brands like Elipson, Cabasse, the first JM Reynaud's, and of course JBL or Acoustic Research (I'm talking about my country in the old pre-global economy), but enough nostalgia.

I didn't know GG...T use Celestion compression drivers, but why not, I hope Celestion's quality remained thru the times...

I am still looking forward to someone using our Axi2050 driver in their design.

In our industry we know that many good PA drivers are more "Hi-Fi" than "Hi-Fi" drivers if you talk about distortion/efficiency, you just need a bigger cabinet.

Really happy to see CDX-1740 here anyway. Compression drivers used to have a very nasty response due to the resonances in the compression chamber/phase plug channels. The R&D leaders of our group developed the modal suppression phase plug technology long ago to make our product sound much smoother and cleaner. The China factory has been doing great to make good quality products, including Hi-Fi speakers (KEF) too.
 
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