Getting tired of the D sound ?

[Hindsider85]

So clearly have you. I would not use that line on argument if I was you. Your personal experience does not constitute a superior argument compared to anyone else's subjsctive personal preference, but we're all glad you found what you like.

Personally, my current class D sounds at least as good as my old class AB (which I also loved). And measurements show my perception is defensible. I don't remotely believe it's a SQ war, it's ll about what serves certain environments and feature needs best. Both can sound awesome and measurements can confirm that in specific cases. An specific cases is all this stuff is about, it's entirely silly to claim any "Class X" is generally totally superior to all other ones.

Why should I lie then? I have the 3E Audio A7 with Bursons V7Vs and a 10A Gan powersupply. I know very well how it sounds like. Its a steal and imo, and im not alone here, better than all the Fosis and other TI based Class D amps from China. I also have the Class AB Denon X-4800H and had the Dartzeel clone D5 Pro from Transaudio. But the Musical Fidelity A1 is something else entirely. It has a different sound. Different from all of them. How they reach this is not of any relevance to me. All I care about is whats coming out of my speakers. And what is coming out of it is simply better. But my definition of musicality and yours might substantially differ. I only comment from my own perspective. Im not trying to "convert" anyone here. But I highly recommend to people to give Class A a chance. You might get surprised, or not. But keeping an open mind is worth a lot. In all aspects of life.
Again, I have made a direct comparison. I have 7 speakers on the floor and 3 + 4 of them are identical. Albeit in different locations, to adhear to the Dolby Atmos guidelines. There is a staggering difference between the Musical Fidelity A1 and the 3E A7. Thats all there is to say.

 

[pablolie]

Why should I lie then?

When and where did I say you lied? Feeling a bit insecure and defensive, are we? Otherwise you wouldn't have to resort to imaginary visions of being accused of lies.

You clearly stated you can hear differences between equipment that exceeds human hearing ability. You labelled yourself magically platinum eared. Without any proof. That weakens your argument... a lot.

I can also claim I manage to levitate when I do yoga in my room every night. It'd be more credible if I provide proof.

 

[Audiofire]

It has a different sound. Different from all of them. How they reach this is not of any relevance to me. All I care about is whats coming out of my speakers.

Auditory memory only lasts a few seconds. After that, you cannot compare with another amp correctly. So quick switching would be necessary, and human hearing is still insufficient. Science has proven this.

 

[kemmler3D]

Im not being snarky here. Im telling you what I hear. I dont care about measurements. ... Only the Class A sound is totally different. And I dont mean "a bit here and there". Its a completely different sound characteristic. Much more analog, more fluid, more pleasing yet also with more body.

Assuming what you hear is real, I think it would be easy to see in measurements, at least for someone like me that's spent a lot of time corroborating graphs and what I hear. It would be interesting to investigate. But absent any data I don't have much to say about it. Anyway, I am glad you are happy with it, but I am sure you can appreciate that we can't do much with a single testimonial, or even lots of them.

Example of why even many anecdotal comments don't help: I once published a firmware update for a set of BT headphones that just changed how some of the buttons behaved. I sent out a survey to the users and asked them a bunch of things, including whether the sound had improved or gotten worse. IIRC a solid majority claimed the sound had improved, even though the sound did not change at all. Whatever they heard occurred in the brain only...

This was dozens of people who would claim with full confidence we had done something to improve the sound! Anecdotes are more fun to read, but I'll stick with graphs.

 

[Hindsider85]

When and where did I say you lied? Feeling a bit insecure, are we? Otherwise you wouldn't have to resort to imaginary visions of being accused of lies.

You clearly stated you can hear differences between equipment that exceeds human hearing ability. You labelled yourself magically platinum eared. Without any proof.

Yes, but I was referring to the transparency. I never said Im hearing more or less with A or B. I said that the sound produced is very different. And it absolutely is. I wouldnt believe anybody, with healthy hearing, coming to my cozy audio room and telling me that the A1 and the A7 sound identical. They do not. I can guarantee you they do not.

 

[pablolie]

Yes, but I was referring to the transparency. I never said Im hearing more or less with A or B. I said that the sound produced is very different. And it absolutely is. I wouldnt believe anybody, with healthy hearing, coming to my cozy audio room and telling me that the A1 and the A7 sound identical. They do not. I can guarantee you they do not.

If they don't sound the same to *you*, I am completely ok with you saying that's your personal perception.

If you claim everybody should buy whatever amp you have because it sounds better than all of Class D, it is a laughable premise. And You *were* making a value call between amplifier classes in general, so your argument fails miserably. You make generic category claims out of a ridiculously small sample, sorry.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

I can guarantee you they do not.

I will bet you $1000 if you hosted a proper blind A/B test, no one would tell the difference. So let us know once you do that

 

[Hindsider85]

Assuming what you hear is real, I think it would be easy to see in measurements, at least for someone like me that's spent a lot of time corroborating graphs and what I hear. It would be interesting to investigate. But absent any data I don't have much to say about it. Anyway, I am glad you are happy with it, but I am sure you can appreciate that we can't do much with a single testimonial, or even lots of them.

Example of why even many anecdotal comments don't help: I once published a firmware update for a set of BT headphones that just changed how some of the buttons behaved. I sent out a survey to the users and asked them a bunch of things, including whether the sound had improved or gotten worse. IIRC a solid majority claimed the sound had improved, even though the sound did not change at all. Whatever they heard occurred in the brain only...

This was dozens of people who would claim with full confidence we had done something to improve the sound! Anecdotes are more fun to read, but I'll stick with graphs.

I know words like "fluid, authority, more body etc." seem like typical snake oil salesmen vernacular, but how can I describe what im hearing otherwise. Especially if there are no established nomenclatures? And those "audiophile catchphrases" have established themselves in the community, because most people can link them to what they are hearing or feeling.

 

[SuicideSquid]

Im not being snarky here. Im telling you what I hear.

No, you're telling us what you think you can hear. There's an important difference. If you're not taking some basic steps to control for the very well-understood ways people fool themselves, you're not reporting what you're hearing, only what you think you're hearing.

Consider the image below. If you just look at it casually, you'd swear up and down that "A" and "B" are different shades of grey. They're not - it's an illusion, they're the same shade. You can zoom in on the image, or cut a hole in a piece of paper and put it over your screen, and move it between "A" and "B", and you'll see they're the same. Your other senses can be deceived just as easily. It's pure hubris to assume otherwise.

 

[Audiofire]

Musical Fidelity A1, 5V into 4 ohms (left green, right gray) has audible distortion (which is ridiculous for $1779)

 

[RandomEar]

Im not being snarky here. Im telling you what I hear. I dont care about measurements. Im not one to fall for utter snake oil. Im telling you what I hear and what tons of other people say.

Hearing is an interpretation of your brain which relies on more than sound. It's not deterministic and not reliable. The fact that you or anybody is convinced to have heard something doesn't mean the sound actually existed in the reported form.

Uncontrolled, sighted testing doesn't give you valid results, it just produces noise. Without the absolute minimum controls like level-matching and blind testing, all you do is solidify your bias. You're essentially fooling yourself.

I have compared the Class D A7 (A great AMP, imo the best TI based one) with the A1. And I also have a Denon X-4800H, a very competent AV-Receiver that is fully capable as a Hi-Fi Stereo machine. All three of them reach enough transpareny to meet and exceed the threshold of human hearing.

Nope. The Musical Fidelity A1 does not "exceed the threshold of hearing". Not by a long shot. It doesn't even produce a single Watt of power with barely acceptable distortion (-60 dB) into 4 Ω. It's not a good amp and due to its super low power (about 15 W), you run the very real risk of clipping during normal listening.

Why is it that the A1 sounds so much different then? The difference between the Denon and A7 are miniscule, or probably dont even exist at all. I never claimed otherwise. Only the Class A sound is totally different.

It's not "Class A sound". Classes don't have a sound. It's just a mediocre amplifier and there's no proof, yet that it actually sounds different at all - because you refuse to do proper, controlled tests.

And I dont mean "a bit here and there". Its a completely different sound characteristic. Much more analog, more fluid, more pleasing yet also with more body.

Honestly, you may just hear the amp distorting heavily because it lacks the power to drive your speakers. Or there may be no actual difference - we still don't know and will continue to not know as long as you continue to not test it properly.

 

[RandomEar]

I will bet you $1000 if you hosted a proper blind A/B test, no one would tell the difference. So let us know once you do that

I would actually not be sure in this particular case. The amp is pretty bad and really lacks power. It could potentially show audible distortion and clipping in a test, depending on speaker efficiency and listening levels

 

[Buckeye Amps]

I would actually not be sure in this particular case. The amp is pretty bad and really lacks power. It could potentially show audible distortion and clipping in a test, depending on speaker efficiency and listening levels

I guess we would have to bring the level of the test down to match the lower performance of the amp he is praising so it is a proper A/B test. D'oh

 

[pablolie]

I would actually not be sure in this particular case. The amp is pretty bad and really lacks power. It could potentially show audible distortion and clipping in a test, depending on speaker efficiency and listening levels

I could not be any less interested in the singular amps that went into this "test"... and clearly one of them has found it's perfect audience, which is great.

The problem here was the generalization into the "class" catergory of amplifiers with a ridiculously limited sample size... and the claim that dfferences could easily be heard between amps that were "above the limits of human hearing".

Nothing new under the sun. We know audio consumers can get pretty attached to their latest purchase. Whether they still feel the same a year later is a different matter... and I'd be curious if @Hindsider85 feels the exact same way in 2027, or has moved on to a different, amazingly superior sounding setup by then...

We should all admit we're all very willing to hear great sound out of every new audio purchase we make... otherwise we wouldn't have made it. The real proof we're happy with what we have is when we keep the same stuff we have for over 5 years (provided we're not broke and don't have the choice to hunt for another "upgrade" ).

 

[davmol]

I got my Musical Fidelity A1 (2023) this week. My 3E Audio A7 ,with Burson V7Vs, goes as a backup on my PC. I will never use it for music again. The A1 is just better. I dont even have to go into detail. It just is. In every and any way possible. Class D cant even be considered "for music pleasure" in comparison. Class D is not even an option anymore. Who knows, maybe I send the Bursons and my A7 back, since I have a couple days left to return them. I dont need that anymore. I got something MUCH better.

I had a similar thought process when I first bought a Musical Fidelity A1 clone (i.e. it's the exact same circuit as the original), but after a while of fiddling about with the volume I realised there was no difference versus my newer Fosi V3 monos (I wrote a post about it).

Coincidentally, I also later owned the 3e Audio A7 (now sold) and because it had a volume control I was able to properly level match (using a multi-meter) and compare it to the Musical Fidelity A1 and couldn't hear any difference at all (and as expected, no difference between the 3e and the Fosi monos). I sold the A1 once my new double glazing was installed and I didn't need the extra radiator anymore

I do like the 80s looks of the proper A1 that you have and I was tempted when I first saw it released but I like to run all my sources through room correction / PEQ so an integrated is a little bit wasted on me these days (otherwise I might've kept my Yamaha A-S301, another excellent amp).

The clone A1 and the Fosi's together, back when I was doing some A/B testing:

Current setup that I'm happily enjoying (hopefully a long while) are these heavily discounted "cosmetically marked" Sabaj A20a amps and A20d DAC, primarily due to the aesthetically pleasing stackability when topped off with my silver Wiim Ultra

 

[JW001]

Why is it that the A1 sounds so much different then?

Here is the answer to your question: it introduces distortions, also known as warm, "tube-like" sound.

AI Overview of A1 from Google search (I didn't bother to do a real research):

The Musical Fidelity A1 is a iconic, reissued 1985 integrated amplifier ($1,999) known for its pure Class A, 25Wpc (8 ohms) output, producing a warm, "tube-like" sound.

 

[Audiofire]

awful, hollow sound

 

[chelgrian]

I will bet you $1000 if you hosted a proper blind A/B test, no one would tell the difference. So let us know once you do that

Or $1000 of Buckeye amp instead since you’d get it straight back once the OP saw it even if you lost

 

[Audiofire]

For tube amp R&D, you would be better off with a musical oven, that also reduces CO2 emissions

 

[Hindsider85]

I had a similar thought process when I first bought a Musical Fidelity A1 clone (i.e. it's the exact same circuit as the original), but after a while of fiddling about with the volume I realised there was no difference versus my newer Fosi V3 monos (I wrote a post about it).

Coincidentally, I also later owned the 3e Audio A7 (now sold) and because it had a volume control I was able to properly level match (using a multi-meter) and compare it to the Musical Fidelity A1 and couldn't hear any difference at all (and as expected, no difference between the 3e and the Fosi monos). I sold the A1 once my new double glazing was installed and I didn't need the extra radiator anymore

I do like the 80s looks of the proper A1 that you have and I was tempted when I first saw it released but I like to run all my sources through room correction / PEQ so an integrated is a little bit wasted on me these days (otherwise I might've kept my Yamaha A-S301, another excellent amp).

The clone A1 and the Fosi's together, back when I was doing some A/B testing:
View attachment 523527

Current setup that I'm happily enjoying (hopefully a long while) are these heavily discounted "cosmetically marked" Sabaj A20a amps and A20d DAC, primarily due to the aesthetically pleasing stackability when topped off with my silver Wiim Ultra
View attachment 523526 View attachment 523530

Nice set-up. I was also thinking about that one, or the D9 Pro Master Editon, but after my D5 pro literally "exploding", I chose not to purchase another Ali Express clone. My insurance carrier does not provide any coverage for eletronics that dont have a european CE certification.