Getting tired of the D sound ?

[SuicideSquid]

This reminds me of the transistor vs. tube controversy in the early '70s.

There are real, measurable, and audible differences between transistors and tubes though. There aren't meaningful differences between one way of organizing transistors and another way, so long as it's done competently.

 

[kemmler3D]

What means : and not clipped ?

Not driven past the point where distortion increases rapidly with more power, i.e. not asking it to deliver more power than it has.

I imagine that "clipping" refers to the fact that the tops of the waveforms on an oscilloscope start to look flat once you go past clipping, i.e. they're cut off or "clipped", but I haven't looked this up, so don't quote me on that.

I suppose that the exception to this are tube amps ?
that are willingly or not willingly distorted ?

Not necessarily, a tube amp can have more (maybe even audible) distortion without clipping if that's what people want.

Class D should not sound different than AB all else held equal, but audible differences might be possible if the amp in question has a lot of load dependency. Some cheap Class D amps sold today do have some significant load dependency, although mostly in the upper treble near 20khz where most of us can barely hear anything anyway.

In the end, the amp discussion boils down to a tautology, but a useful one. Decent amps that are working and used correctly don't have a sound, i.e. they all sound the same. If an amp has a sound that is audibly different than other amps, it's either a bad amp, or being used incorrectly.

This does not mean it's impossible to find bad amps, or drive them beyond what they're made for, or even to pay a lot of money for a bad amp. It does not mean literally all amps sound the same no matter what you do.

But it does mean that we should not shop for, or hope for, or expect coloration from amps. In 2026 it does not take too much money to get a decent 100w or even 200w amp that delivers transparency.

If you want something other than transparency from your amp, that is OK, but it's not the norm as many audiophiles / reviewers would have you believe.

 

[whereisbrian]

I hear more and more about people
abandoning the class D sound,
switching back to the AB sound ?

Audiophonics among others, see this happening.

I know that on paper this does not, cannot, show up ?

I saw a blind test between class A, AB and D
and no one could tell,
BUT BUT, these were all very expensive amps,

not amps between 300 and 800 euros !

I know very well that class D has improved a lot,
but still wondering about this ?

Someone told me to buy
with my futur WiiM Ultra

instead of a 3E A7,
a Yamaha A-S701 or some other AB.

Any opinions about this ?

You've heard that more and more people are getting tired of the sound of Class D.
How many people?

For your information, Class D has absolutely no "sound."
The listening room, the acoustics and the placement of the speakers are much more important.
(I have 25 years of experience with Class D.)

 

[antcollinet]

this is a discussion I had with M. David Aubert at Audiophonics.

Perhaps the neutral very linear sound
is not so pleasing after all ?

It is, of course, nonsense.


If he is from Audiophonics he has got access to lots of amps he could blind test - just direct him here first to learn how to do it properly:

Audio Blind Testing - You Are Doing It Wrong! (Video)

Just uploaded a video on the basics of performing controlled tests in audio. It was motivated by saving myself text in having to write all of this down when telling someone who to do these tests right. And as a counter to a few online personalities to keep saying they do "blind" tests yet when...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Multicore]

instead of a 3E A7,
a Yamaha A-S701 or some other AB.

Any opinions about this ?

Oh yes.

3E A7 and Yamaha A-S701 are incomparable. Not because of power amp circuit class but because of features. Which of them has

• Tone control knobs
• Loudness knob
• Two digital and lots of analog inputs
• Headphone jack with its own volume control
• Phono preamp
• Balance knob?

All highly valuable to the practical enjoyment of music and other audio. All of these, unlike amp class, make a difference.

 

[Hindsider85]

I got my Musical Fidelity A1 (2023) this week. My 3E Audio A7 ,with Burson V7Vs, goes as a backup on my PC. I will never use it for music again. The A1 is just better. I dont even have to go into detail. It just is. In every and any way possible. Class D cant even be considered "for music pleasure" in comparison. Class D is not even an option anymore. Who knows, maybe I send the Bursons and my A7 back, since I have a couple days left to return them. I dont need that anymore. I got something MUCH better.

 

[kemmler3D]

I got my Musical Fidelity A1 (2023) this week. My 3E Audio A7 ,with Burson V7Vs, goes as a backup on my PC. I will never use it for music again. The A1 is just better. I dont even have to go into detail. It just is. In every and any way possible. Class D cant even be considered "for music pleasure" in comparison. Class D is not even an option anymore. Who knows, maybe I send the Bursons and my A7 back, since I have a couple days left to return them. I dont need that anymore. I got something MUCH better.

Can you share the results of your blind, level-matched test that proved this beyond the need of discussion?

 

[Hindsider85]

Can you share the results of your blind, level-matched test that proved this beyond the need of discussion?

Nope. I dont need to. My ears are enough for the obvious difference.
You still have your graphs though. Enjoy them!
I mean I have the 3E Audio with Burson V7 Vivids and the difference is staggering. But alas, you dont care and have already made up your mind. There is nothing I can do to convince you anyway, since you only care about Amirs graphs. As I've already said: Enjoy them and let me enjoy something better!

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

There are real, measurable, and audible differences between transistors and tubes though. There aren't meaningful differences between one way of organizing transistors and another way, so long as it's done competently.

Some early transistor amps weren't as well designed as later ones. Part of it was just normal human resistance to anything that's new.

 

[kemmler3D]

But alas, you dont care and have already made up your mind.

If I didn't care, I wouldn't ask. As I mentioned in my post above, not all amps sound identical in all situations. It's interesting when an exception to the rule shows up.

There is nothing I can do to convince you anyway, since you only care about Amirs graphs.

You could post your own graphs? Or do a blind test, as I mentioned? I'm willing to be convinced, but comments alone won't do it.

As I've already said: Enjoy them and let me enjoy something better!

By all means, enjoy them - but if we are to agree that the gear is better, I would need some kind of solid evidence. Placebo effect is extremely common (I've caught myself hearing it directly more than once) so it has to be ruled out as a potential cause for what you're hearing. This is true in any situation where the typical audible differences between gear are small or zero.

 

[Bleib]

I got my Musical Fidelity A1 (2023) this week. My 3E Audio A7 ,with Burson V7Vs, goes as a backup on my PC. I will never use it for music again. The A1 is just better. I dont even have to go into detail. It just is. In every and any way possible. Class D cant even be considered "for music pleasure" in comparison. Class D is not even an option anymore. Who knows, maybe I send the Bursons and my A7 back, since I have a couple days left to return them. I dont need that anymore. I got something MUCH better.

Musical Fidelity A1 integrated amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

Sidebar 3: Measurements I assessed the Musical Fidelity A1's measured performance using my Audio Precision SYS2722 system. I initially had some problems, as while the right channel's gain increased as expected when I pushed the front-panel button to switch from Direct mode to Normal mode, the...

www.stereophile.com

This one? If so, then it neither has a lot of power and isn't even that clean

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I hear more and more about people
abandoning streaming files CDs cassettes reel-to-reel vinyl,
switching back to the wax cylinder sound ?

 

[Audiofire]

My ears are enough for the obvious difference.

Generally wrong. Human hearing is (very) insufficient for testing amp specifications. Psychoacoustics can still cause a subjective difference.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

hmm, it's almost as if audio equipment dealers are motivated to convince people that amps have different sounds and that switching amps often is a good idea...nah, that's crazy, right? right?

 

[Hindsider85]

If I didn't care, I wouldn't ask. As I mentioned in my post above, not all amps sound identical. It's interesting when an exception to the rule shows up.


You could post your own graphs? Or do a blind test, as I mentioned? I'm willing to be convinced, but comments alone won't do it.


By all means, enjoy them - but if we are to agree that the gear is better, I would need some kind of hard evidence. Placebo effect is extremely common (I've caught myself hearing it directly more than once) so it has to be ruled out as a potential cause for what you're hearing. This is true in any situation where the typical audible differences between gear are small or zero.

Im not being snarky here. Im telling you what I hear. I dont care about measurements. Im not one to fall for utter snake oil. Im telling you what I hear and what tons of other people say. I have compared the Class D A7 (A great AMP, imo the best TI based one) with the A1. And I also have a Denon X-4800H, a very competent AV-Receiver that is fully capable as a Hi-Fi Stereo machine. All three of them reach enough transpareny to meet and exceed the threshold of human hearing. Why is it that the A1 sounds so much different then? The difference between the Denon and A7 are miniscule, or probably dont even exist at all. I never claimed otherwise. Only the Class A sound is totally different. And I dont mean "a bit here and there". Its a completely different sound characteristic. Much more analog, more fluid, more pleasing yet also with more body.

 

[pablolie]

...But alas, you dont care and have already made up your mind....

So clearly have you. I would not use that line on argument if I was you. Your personal experience does not constitute a superior argument compared to anyone else's subjsctive personal preference, but we're all glad you found what you like.

Personally, my current class D sounds at least as good as my old class AB (which I also loved). And measurements show my perception is defensible. I don't remotely believe it's a SQ war, it's ll about what serves certain environments and feature needs best. Both can sound awesome and measurements can confirm that in specific cases. An specific cases is all this stuff is about, it's entirely silly to claim any "Class X" is generally totally superior to all other ones.

 

[Audiofire]

Im telling you what I hear.

Only solid state amps designed ridiculously bad these days have audible (and unnecessary) distortion. Funnily enough, such distortion is easy to measure, because measurement instruments are more sensitive than human hearing. Tube amps for guitar still serve a purpose.

 

[pablolie]

... enough transpareny to meet and exceed the threshold of human hearing. Why is it that the A1 sounds so much different then? ...

So you claim they all exceed human hearing capability, yet *YOU* can hear the difference?? Uhm, right, that makes a lot of sense inasfar as it explains a lot about your... logic. :-D

 

[Audiofire]

 

[pablolie]

Beating a dead horse is fun. They don't feel pain. They can't defend themselves effectively at all. Clearly they don't care about reality anymore. Kind of like @Hindsider85 :-D