Genesis One

[Medsca]

Kickstarter just launched Genesis one. It is a new type of headphones produced by lilyaudio.
Does anyone have insight into these new cans?

 

[flitcroft]

I ordered today and offered them to Amir to review when they get delivered. I heard them at CanJam SoCal, and they were one of the few headphones I loved at any price. I ended up buying Meze Elites at the show to give some idea of what I was looking for. I also liked the Meze Poet, Senn HD 800S, and ABYSS AB1266 TC (though they are too ergonomically weird and heavy to be a serious consideration for me).

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

I heard them at CanJam SoCal

If they are a just-launched kickstarter, how did you get to hear them?

 

[LearningToSmile]

They do actually provide some graphs, if very tiny, so that's nice.

Note: Measurements were taken using a B&K UA 2212. The data shown is raw, with no smoothing applied. Fine-tuning of Genesis One will continue over the next few weeks to slightly enhance the midrange, so the final frequency response curve may differ slightly. However, the overall sound signature will remain consistent.

Doesn't look awful, some subbass rolloff but at least it's not yet another "neutral" flat bass wonder. At kickstarter price pretty interesting, at retail maybe less so.

If they are a just-launched kickstarter, how did you get to hear them?

Pretty common for companies to show off upcoming/in development products at audio shows like CanJam.

 

[flitcroft]

If they are a just-launched kickstarter, how did you get to hear them?

Lily Audio had a booth. They had two pre-production units there. One was stripped down to show the solid state driver and one looked like the Kickstarter photos. The headphones are incredibly light with soft clamping force. Of all the top of the line headphones I heard, Genesis One stood out to me. They were accurate, had solid bass, and were free of sibilance. That’s about as much as i can remember from 6 weeks ago. I didn’t realize at the time that finding an amplifier may be an issue. I had assumed they used a headphone amp but it may be that you need a certain type of speaker amp.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

. I had assumed they used a headphone amp but it may be that you need a certain type of speaker amp

Yeah in the linked Oratory reddit page there are measurements but they also say “Basically what you want to drive these headphones is either a purpose-built "piezo amplifier", or a strong class AB loudspeaker amp”

I’d be pretty pissed off if I’d joined the kickstarter (which really underplays the amp requirements IMO) and only found that out later

 

[flitcroft]

Amir is going to review them. There's not much information out there on these, so it will be interesting to see accurate measurements. If possible, I'll have Kickstarter send it directly to him. He noted that traditionally, these types of drivers have resonance issues. I didn't notice that on the noisy trade show floor, so I'm curious to learn about that as well.

 

[oleg87]

According to Oratory1990's measurements, these things have approximately a 70dB/V sensitivity.
And not all amps are going to be happy driving a 200nF capacitor.

Strictly for the novelty-chasers, in my view.

 

[flitcroft]

I messaged the creator on Reddit, and they updated the FAQ on the Kickstarter. It seems less power-dependent than oratory1990 suggested. Here's the FAQ update:

How to drive Genesis One

The CrystalCore™ driver in Genesis One requires a higher voltage swing (at least 10Vrms) to perform at its best, even though it consumes very little current or power. For the best experience, we recommend the following high power headphone amps:

Aune s9c pro
Aune s17 pro evo (balanced output)
Aune n7 (balanced output)
Feliks Audio Euforia EVO
Lake People G111 Mk2
Schiit Vidar 2F
Topping DX5 II
Darkvoice 336se
Woo Audio WA5-LE
Woo Audio WA22
Cayin HA-1A MK2
Emotiva BasX A2L+ / A2+

We’ll keep updating this list as we find more amps that work well with Genesis One.

 

[oratory1990]

To elaborate on this a little further - "how much voltage do you need?"

You can calculate this, depending on

• the voltage sensitivity of the headphones (roughly 70 dB/V)
• what average listening level you want to achieve
• what the crest factor is of the music that you're listening to.

With the voltage sensitivity being roughly 70 dB/V, it then depends on what combination of average listening level and crest factor you are dealing with.
For reference, average listening level (A-weighted):

• 60 dB: quiet listening
• 70 dB: moderate listening
• 80 dB: loud
• 90 dB: very loud

The crest factor describes by how much more the individual peaks (e.g. the hit of a snare drum) is louder than the average level of the song. Music can have a crest factor from as low as 3 dB (very compressed music, pop, music from the loudness-war era) up to as high as 18-20 dB (highly dynamic classical music)

An example:
I listen to rock music at moderate to loud listening levels.
Rock music is typically at 10-15 dB crest factor.
"moderate to loud" is 70-80 dB.
This gives a maximum of 15 + 80 = 95 dB.
So I need to achieve 95 dB with a voltage sensitivity of 70 dB/V, and this can be calculated as 10^((95-70)/20) = ~18 V.
So for my purposes I would need an amplifier that can provide an output voltage of 18 Volt (and can handle ~160 nF of capacitive load)

 

[Medsca]

Excellent analysis. I appreciate the facts you identified.

 

[AetherDrive]

Frankly, I'm pretty excited about this release and perhaps unsurprisingly I've backed this Kickstarter. Electret/piezo designs have been done before and for one reason or another they typically fail on the market. I personally own one of pioneer's efforts and the absolute lack of bass kills its useability for me combined with the difficulty to drive are both common issues that this driver type has been plagued with and it makes it a novelty can that I ultimately never use.

These on the other hand do have bass with the added benefit of being more drivable than their predecessors. Add to this the fact that they've been pretty transparent about the design process, have brought on Oratory as a third-party consultant, have been listening to feedback regarding their tuning to add a more linear midrange (we are waiting on new measurements to confirm this) and addressing the apparent resonance at 3khz, which is expanded upon in their latest blog post.

 

[Medsca]

I thought they were going to ship Amir a set for testing. Do you know if this has been done?

 

[Apesbrain]

Kinda sacriligious to name them after an iconic speaker system:

 

[AetherDrive]

Kinda sacriligious to name them after an iconic speaker system:

View attachment 494635

Gonna give them the benefit of the doubt that they didn't know about the Genesis One's existence lmao.

I wonder if Paul still has them in his demo room, not that I'm planning on to Boulder anytime soon but they are on my list of speakers I'd like to experience at least once.

I thought they were going to ship Amir a set for testing. Do you know if this has been done?

I haven't the slightest, I do know that in their latest update, they have finalized the design and are waiting on factory samples to come out. If they did mention that they were gonna send a pair to Amir, I'd assume it'd be after this. Hopefully, since Oratory is a consultant, we'll be able to get some measurements from him once the final product is released.

 

[oratory1990]

Hopefully, since Oratory is a consultant, we'll be able to get some measurements from him once the final product is released.

That's the plan!

 

[Reticuli]

Has anyone shown an impulse response and waterfall plots yet for it?

 

[AetherDrive]

Ignoring some of the more snake oil and sensationalized content he puts out, I tend to agree with his headphone impressions, Lachlan (Passion for Sound) has put out a first impressions video for an older prototype of the Genesis One:

Its actually a grounded impressions review that's critical while discussing the positives as well.

Assuming we can take the manufacturer at their word that they've fixed the treble issues, I'm left pretty hopeful that this will be a good product and am still moderately excited for its release. Looking forward to further updates on the newest iteration...

 

[flitcroft]

I thought they were going to ship Amir a set for testing. Do you know if this has been done?

I'm sending my personal pair, but I think they won't arrive until February or so. If I can ship them directly to him, I will. Otherwise, I'll slap a new label on them when they arrive and send them over.

 

[oratory1990]

Assuming we can take the manufacturer at their word that they've fixed the treble issues,

I will receive another unit for testing, with the updated tuning.
I'll be posting the results.