No there isn't. Because it doesn't exist. I'm happy to point out the relevant section of the Monty video for you also if you wish.
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Generic Budget USB to AES Converter Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Indeed, I was looking for a very simple and inexpensive solution to take advantage of my gelenec that accept AES.
For me, I thought it was just a simple converter but if I understood correctly: there is a DAC inside.
By ear, I didn't notice anything except a signal problem that very rarely crackles on the right speaker. All you have to do is unplug and reconnect the USB and you're done.
The objective of the test is to find out whether or not this solution is suitable for 10 dollars.
Apparently not, so I ordered a Topping D10S with 110ohm SPDIF AES cable to be certain of the quality for my Genelec 8331
I'm using an Audiophonics XMOS U208 with my Genelec 8240, and I have not noticed any problems at all so far. Unfortunately, it is discontinued by now. Since I was not satisfied with what GLM could do, I'm now using a miniDSP DDRC-22D between the interface and the Genelecs, and that resulted in significant improvements in room eq / correction via Dirac, with no additional problems encountered so far.
alexanderino
Active Member
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Thanks, but there's no need. Monty's video is on my speed dial when I encounter friends who do not understand digital audio
If the minidsp and Dirac is doing what you want then that’s what matters.
However with the 8240a and GLM 5.1.1 there is an issue with updating and misreporting that the speakers are on the latest firmware. GLM 5.1.1 with previous speaker firmware may give some odd results for delay, level and EQ.
I think the current 8240 firmware is: 8240a 2 0008 0300 0300
If you install GLM V4.x you can successfully run the unit firmware update and then return to GLM 5 after that.
Genelec did upgrade the DAC in this regard.
I recently purchased older used Genelec 8330 that with this very USB to Aes converter put out the music with a lot of electronics noise - unlistenable. I thought they were defective as my newer 8341 had no problem with the same AES signal.
However after firmware update to newest version the 8330 accepted the signal out of this Conveter and indeed it sounded better then analog input of my notebook.
So you should then be familiar with the section where he shows a 20kHz sine wave perfectly reproduced, and a square wave positionable (phase shift) to any relationship with the sample points. IE, no audible phase distortion - at least with redbook or better.Thanks, but there's no need. Monty's video is on my speed dial when I encounter friends who do not understand digital audio
Last edited:
alexanderino
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But of courseSo you should then be familiar with the section where he shows a 20kHz sine wave perfectly reproduced, and a square wave positionable (phase shift) to any relationship with the sample points. IE, no audible phase distortion - at least with redbook or better.
Here's a screenshot from 5:52 of the video, prepared for replying to someone else:No jaggies, no phase issues — even at 20000 Hz! Shannon‐Nyquist holds true.
Just gone back and looked - sorry, I think I misunderstood the nature of your reply to @NielsMayer that I replied to.But of course
View attachment 418532
No jaggies, no phase issues — even at 20000 Hz! Shannon‐Nyquist holds true.
alexanderino
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All goodJust gone back and looked - sorry, I think I misunderstood the nature of your reply to @NielsMayer that I replied to.
If I understand what you are saying, the converter is probably "valid" and not so bad if it is blocked at 16bits instead of 24 bits?
I'm going to do some blind subjective tests (but at equalized levels) between the converter and the D10s
KSTR
Major Contributor
Well, besides the unresolved bit depth issue, what we also do not know if this device is a monster jitter generator or not because that was only tested indirectly.
This could well be, @amirm's plot for that indirect test points into that direction, as do the reports of some DACs having issues with this adapter.
In any case, if there is jitter, it cannot be heard on my system. I brought music enthusiasts to my home, they analyzed the sound carefully and found the quality excellent.
but when in DOUBT, I prefer to change with a D10S
How does a jitter problem mean to the human ear?
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KSTR
Major Contributor
At some point it starts to sound worse than with zero jitter, and it depends on the actual type of jitter.
Revelant is what the DAC makes out of a jittery digital input signal. Good DACs are basically immune (by definition, sort of).
You can use https://distortaudio.org/index.html, written by our forum member @pkane, to get a grip on how massive amounts of jitter and other ill-effects will sound.
I am not sure it's the job of a DAC to eliminate jitter carried in the master-clocked digital stream. The DAC assembly (of which the actual DAC conversion is one part) may include some functions that try to reduce the clock jitter (advanced clock-recovery PLL, asynchronous resampling), but a jitter at any scale can never be eliminated completely.
IMO it's the job for the component which generates the master-clocked digital stream (SPDIF/AES transmitter, I2S-LVDS transmitter) for the DAC assembly, to minimize jitter of its output signal. IMO quality of that signal should not be considered unimportant, instead assuming that DAC should be able to "clean it up", that it's the DAC job.
Yes, it would be good to measure the DAC assembly's ability to reduce incoming jitter, it's a useful information. But e.g. a DAC assembly with no async resampling function can still be excellent, if a good-quality signal is available (which is what should be aimed for in the first place).
IMO it's the job for the component which generates the master-clocked digital stream (SPDIF/AES transmitter, I2S-LVDS transmitter) for the DAC assembly, to minimize jitter of its output signal. IMO quality of that signal should not be considered unimportant, instead assuming that DAC should be able to "clean it up", that it's the DAC job.
Yes, it would be good to measure the DAC assembly's ability to reduce incoming jitter, it's a useful information. But e.g. a DAC assembly with no async resampling function can still be excellent, if a good-quality signal is available (which is what should be aimed for in the first place).
KSTR
Major Contributor
@phofman , I would certainly agree. Basically, like in a marriage, both partners shoud try to support each other for an optimum combination ;-)
@amirm, I think I've found the reason for 16bit issue. This adapter comes in 4 different flavors, and the cheapest one -- which seems to be the one you've been testing -- only supports 16bit/48kHz.
@amirm, I think I've found the reason for 16bit issue. This adapter comes in 4 different flavors, and the cheapest one -- which seems to be the one you've been testing -- only supports 16bit/48kHz.
It can be rejected to the capability/stability of the control loop of the PLL / ASRC. Which, as you say is not completely - but is good enough for jitter artefacts to be inaudible.
Fundamentally the purpose of the PLL is to provide a smooth (unjittered) clock at the average clock rate of the incoming data stream. They are normally pretty good at this.
ASRC will typically measure and average the incoming clock rate to determine the clock rate to be used for the input stream in the resampling process. They can also use a control loop around a buffer to provide a smoothed local version of the incoming clock to clock the data out of the buffer into the ASRC circuit (essentially another PLL). Or a combination of the two. Again, fairly effective at rejecting jitter.
jk42
Member
I found these thingies in Aliexpress before patoulol, we chatted in FB about them before he got one or send it to ASR, so it's very interesting to see the review, but reading the thread, I'm not overly convinced by the test method.
I have three variants - at this price, I just couldn't resist testing them for on-the-road use. The most useful one I think is the USB-C powered optical (Toslink) S/PDIF to AES converter. The USB+BT version has way too much going on, has a rather powerful DSP in it among other things, like multiple HID devices (one reports as a keyboard - probably for media controls, but who knows). This driverless 24/96 USB-to-AES bridge lies somewhere in between.
What's most annoying - or a nice feature for someone else - is that these USB interfaces have volume control and may start at -20 dB, not -0, on powerup, which can definitely mess things up.
Other than not always being at -0dB, I've had zero problems of any kind, but it's a rarely used gadget. My main travel sound source is a Rpi 4B with an AES/EBU hat from Audiophonics. If I'd know I really need PC/Mac->USB->Genelec on the go, I'd either take my RME Babyface Pro FS + Hosa ODL-312 or the Topping D10 + Neutrik NaditBNC-M along, depending on the exact needs.
I have three variants - at this price, I just couldn't resist testing them for on-the-road use. The most useful one I think is the USB-C powered optical (Toslink) S/PDIF to AES converter. The USB+BT version has way too much going on, has a rather powerful DSP in it among other things, like multiple HID devices (one reports as a keyboard - probably for media controls, but who knows). This driverless 24/96 USB-to-AES bridge lies somewhere in between.
What's most annoying - or a nice feature for someone else - is that these USB interfaces have volume control and may start at -20 dB, not -0, on powerup, which can definitely mess things up.
Other than not always being at -0dB, I've had zero problems of any kind, but it's a rarely used gadget. My main travel sound source is a Rpi 4B with an AES/EBU hat from Audiophonics. If I'd know I really need PC/Mac->USB->Genelec on the go, I'd either take my RME Babyface Pro FS + Hosa ODL-312 or the Topping D10 + Neutrik NaditBNC-M along, depending on the exact needs.
Code:
root@vadelma /home/jk # cat /proc/asound/card0/stream0
USB HD Audio Device at usb-0000:01:00.0-1.4, full speed : USB Audio
Playback:
Status: Stop
Interface 1
Altset 1
Format: S16_LE
Channels: 2
Endpoint: 0x01 (1 OUT) (SYNC)
Rates: 48000, 44100, 96000, 88200
Bits: 16
Channel map: FL FR
Interface 1
Altset 2
Format: S24_3LE
Channels: 2
Endpoint: 0x01 (1 OUT) (SYNC)
Rates: 48000, 44100, 96000, 88200
Bits: 24
Channel map: FL FR
root@vadelma /home/jk # cat /proc/asound/card0/usbid
0c76:1700
root@vadelma /home/jk # cat /proc/asound/card0/usbmixer
USB Mixer: usb_id=0x0c761700, ctrlif=0, ctlerr=0
Card: USB HD Audio Device at usb-0000:01:00.0-1.4, full speed
Unit: 49
Control: name="PCM Playback Volume", index=0
Info: id=49, control=2, cmask=0x3, channels=2, type="S16"
Volume: min=-16129, max=-1, dBmin=-6300, dBmax=0
Unit: 49
Control: name="PCM Playback Switch", index=0
Info: id=49, control=1, cmask=0x0, channels=1, type="INV_BOOLEAN"
Volume: min=0, max=1, dBmin=0, dBmax=0
Code:
Bus 001 Device 003: ID 0c76:1700 JMTek, LLC. USB HD Audio Device
Device Descriptor:
bLength 18
bDescriptorType 1
bcdUSB 1.10
bDeviceClass 0
bDeviceSubClass 0
bDeviceProtocol 0
bMaxPacketSize0 64
idVendor 0x0c76 JMTek, LLC.
idProduct 0x1700
bcdDevice 1.00
iManufacturer 0
iProduct 1 USB HD Audio Device
iSerial 0
bNumConfigurations 1
Configuration Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 2
wTotalLength 0x00c4
bNumInterfaces 3
bConfigurationValue 1
iConfiguration 0
bmAttributes 0x80
(Bus Powered)
MaxPower 100mA
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 0
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 0
bInterfaceClass 1 Audio
bInterfaceSubClass 1 Control Device
bInterfaceProtocol 0
iInterface 0
AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 1 (HEADER)
bcdADC 1.00
wTotalLength 0x0028
bInCollection 1
baInterfaceNr(0) 1
AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
bLength 12
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 2 (INPUT_TERMINAL)
bTerminalID 1
wTerminalType 0x0101 USB Streaming
bAssocTerminal 0
bNrChannels 2
wChannelConfig 0x0003
Left Front (L)
Right Front (R)
iChannelNames 0
iTerminal 0
AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 3 (OUTPUT_TERMINAL)
bTerminalID 17
wTerminalType 0x0301 Speaker
bAssocTerminal 0
bSourceID 49
iTerminal 0
AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
bLength 10
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 6 (FEATURE_UNIT)
bUnitID 49
bSourceID 1
bControlSize 1
bmaControls(0) 0x01
Mute Control
bmaControls(1) 0x02
Volume Control
bmaControls(2) 0x02
Volume Control
iFeature 0
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 1
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 0
bInterfaceClass 1 Audio
bInterfaceSubClass 2 Streaming
bInterfaceProtocol 0
iInterface 0
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 1
bAlternateSetting 1
bNumEndpoints 1
bInterfaceClass 1 Audio
bInterfaceSubClass 2 Streaming
bInterfaceProtocol 0
iInterface 0
AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 1 (AS_GENERAL)
bTerminalLink 1
bDelay 1 frames
wFormatTag 0x0001 PCM
AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
bLength 20
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 2 (FORMAT_TYPE)
bFormatType 1 (FORMAT_TYPE_I)
bNrChannels 2
bSubframeSize 2
bBitResolution 16
bSamFreqType 4 Discrete
tSamFreq[ 0] 48000
tSamFreq[ 1] 44100
tSamFreq[ 2] 96000
tSamFreq[ 3] 88200
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x01 EP 1 OUT
bmAttributes 13
Transfer Type Isochronous
Synch Type Synchronous
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0180 1x 384 bytes
bInterval 1
bRefresh 0
bSynchAddress 0
AudioStreaming Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 37
bDescriptorSubtype 1 (EP_GENERAL)
bmAttributes 0x01
Sampling Frequency
bLockDelayUnits 1 Milliseconds
wLockDelay 0x0001
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 1
bAlternateSetting 2
bNumEndpoints 1
bInterfaceClass 1 Audio
bInterfaceSubClass 2 Streaming
bInterfaceProtocol 0
iInterface 0
AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 1 (AS_GENERAL)
bTerminalLink 1
bDelay 1 frames
wFormatTag 0x0001 PCM
AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
bLength 20
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 2 (FORMAT_TYPE)
bFormatType 1 (FORMAT_TYPE_I)
bNrChannels 2
bSubframeSize 3
bBitResolution 24
bSamFreqType 4 Discrete
tSamFreq[ 0] 48000
tSamFreq[ 1] 44100
tSamFreq[ 2] 96000
tSamFreq[ 3] 88200
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x01 EP 1 OUT
bmAttributes 13
Transfer Type Isochronous
Synch Type Synchronous
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0240 1x 576 bytes
bInterval 1
bRefresh 0
bSynchAddress 0
AudioStreaming Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 37
bDescriptorSubtype 1 (EP_GENERAL)
bmAttributes 0x01
Sampling Frequency
bLockDelayUnits 1 Milliseconds
wLockDelay 0x0001
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 2
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 1
bInterfaceClass 3 Human Interface Device
bInterfaceSubClass 0
bInterfaceProtocol 0
iInterface 0
HID Device Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 33
bcdHID 1.00
bCountryCode 0 Not supported
bNumDescriptors 1
bDescriptorType 34 Report
wDescriptorLength 62
Report Descriptors:
** UNAVAILABLE **
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x83 EP 3 IN
bmAttributes 3
Transfer Type Interrupt
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0004 1x 4 bytes
bInterval 32
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
Device Status: 0x0000
(Bus Powered)exactly JK !!!
I remember our exchange and I bought 3 converters
one for ASR and two for me (one 96 and one 44.1)
Where did you find this information?
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