General reliability of big Chinese brands?

[Snoopy]

Take amazon for example, even if shipper is amazon themselves the seller is very likely a Chinese one. Shipping will be fast but once you get problems outside of 30 days return window, you will have to deal with the seller yourself. (You still have amazon cs as the last resort but it is no way a problem free process)

For your second point, not every western brand is well made or reputable. And the problem here is not only about reliability, but it is also after sale service. Yes it is bad if your equipment has 5% failure rate, but it is not too bad if you can get it fixed quickly, free of charge by the manufacturer. Things will get a lot worse if the warranty process takes a long time and possibly cost you money

Just order a new unit from Amazon and return the broken one and pretend it's the one you just ordered.

 

[sarumbear]

Your post says:

That is not correct at least in Amazon.es.
Whatever other meaning you want to give it, I don't know but does not make the sentence above correct.

I suggest you to read your own, the EU law.

 

[delta76]

Just order a new unit from Amazon and return the broken one and pretend it's the one you just ordered.

Uhm, we are honest human beings, and we want to remain that way.

 

[Liya]

I've had briefly Topping dac, I was switching on and off by itself so I got rid of it. I have RME now, zero problems.

 

[Koeitje]

In most cases it is not amazon as the seller.

Also 5% would be very high. 1-2% is a much more normal failure rate

While I agree that 2% (1% is really low) is more normal, but there are for sure types of electronics that hit higher failure rates than that.

 

[DMill]

Many of the Chinese brands mentioned are releasing new products at an extremely fast pace. It seems they are in a SINAD race against each other and being first to market is a priority to them. It may be leading to these products being shortchanged in testing and be part of the cause with some of the reliability issues we’ve seen recently. Add to this the frustrating logistics of having gear shipped back to China and we are starting to hear a lot of unhappy voices on this site and others. Also many of these companies have been smart to leverage ASR by getting product to Amir to coincide with launch dates. We don’t see Yamaha or NAD, for example, shipping product here for testing when they launch a product. and we typically have to wait some time before a kind member sends them in. These more traditional products have been in market longer. Any issues they have has been vetted by being in market and have been corrected with firmware updates and fixes to hardware. Long story short, I think there are some really great buys with Chinese gear, but I personally try to resist the temptation to be an early adopter of their gear. I like to let some time go by and let others who can’t wait be the Guinea pigs.

 

[sprellemannen]

All brands sending products to Amir deserve praise for that, in my opinion.
Reliability/serviceability is important, and there is a thread on that topic.

 

[DMill]

All brands sending products to Amir deserve praise for that, in my opinion.
Reliability/serviceability is important, and there is a thread on that topic.

I agree. I’d love to see some of the more traditional brands send gear here. I think the cost of sending a unit in for testing would be very justifiable considering the marketing exposure they’d get. Perhaps, in some cases, they may not be as confident of their designs as the lead us to believe?

 

[Snoopy]

All brands sending products to Amir deserve praise for that, in my opinion.
Reliability/serviceability is important, and there is a thread on that topic.

Sometimes feels like a promotion of yet another AliExpress device that will be replaced by the next best thing in 2 weeks.

 

[Koeitje]

Many of the Chinese brands mentioned are releasing new products at an extremely fast pace. It seems they are in a SINAD race against each other and being first to market is a priority to them. It may be leading to these products being shortchanged in testing and be part of the cause with some of the reliability issues we’ve seen recently. Add to this the frustrating logistics of having gear shipped back to China and we are starting to hear a lot of unhappy voices on this site and others. Also many of these companies have been smart to leverage ASR by getting product to Amir to coincide with launch dates. We don’t see Yamaha or NAD, for example, shipping product here for testing when they launch a product. and we typically have to wait some time before a kind member sends them in. These more traditional products have been in market longer. Any issues they have has been vetted by being in market and have been corrected with firmware updates and fixes to hardware. Long story short, I think there are some really great buys with Chinese gear, but I personally try to resist the temptation to be an early adopter of their gear. I like to let some time go by and let others who can’t wait be the Guinea pigs.

To be honest, looking at the state of the software in more mainstream brands such as Yamaha, NAD and Marantz I don't think there is much software vetting going on. They have broken filters, clipping, high noise floors, software bugs. Hell, ALL the mainstream brands completely fucked up their HDMI 2.1 products. Great reliability going on there: you literally start off with a broken product to begin with. Another example was that NAD recent product that had issues when you were using a subwoofer, I forgot the model but I think it was the C368. EDIT: It was the C658 and M33 that have clipping problems with the subwoofer output. Excellent vetting, not even testing basic features.

I've never bought a Chinese designed DAC that had any of these issues. The biggest issue I had with a Chinese designed DAC ever was it sometimes dropping sync with the terrible optical out on my TV.

 

[mrjayviper]

I bought a Xiangsheng 728A preamplifier. It had a bad ground hum and sloppy assembly upon arrival. Details of how I slogged through their maintenance process are at

Buyer's report: Xiangsheng 728A tube pre-amplifier

I gave in to the mystique of the tube. I like my solid state setup. It is great for the chamber, jazz, and occasional orchestral music I listen to at moderate-low volume. The Focal Aria 906 speakers are exceptionally clear and neutral, except for occasionally bright (but not thin or screechy)...

audiokarma.org

Is that a "big" Chinese brand? seems not very big or even popular.

 

[tlr125]

i had no quality issues with chinese amp\dac's, but i don't like their aggressive marketing and hardware pace, audiophiles won't change their gear every year , and many chinese products don't justify my expectations, especially within expensive products, that's funny thing: best chinese gear for me - the least expensive, they cost every $ you spent

 

[_thelaughingman]

There's no argument to be had here based on an opinion. Majority of people that'll engage in this conversation about "poor quality" will base it off of colored bias against "Chinese" made products and their cheap manufacturing. Bar the few that have legitimate concerns that have not been answered but, Big question is why would you buy something cheap and complain of lack of quality when you can fork more money on quality?

 

[D00M]

Also a 5% failure rate in the first 2 years is not extremely bad or anything, a lot of electronics and reputable brands do worse than that.

This is too generous or the expectation is too low.

Also 5% would be very high. 1-2% is a much more normal failure rate

This is more in line reality, but still high for a good product.

Electronics return rate can be like 5%. This is different than defect rate. Return can be due to consumer just changing their mind or not liking the product.

The random component level failure rates are anywhere from 1 to 100 defects per million. Then you might have 10-100 components that make up electronics products. Any of the components can fail. So that is OR (in statistics or mathematics), which is an addition.

So assuming really bad quality across the board for all components, 100 defects per million per component x 100 components in a system = 10000 per million for the system, which is 1% failure. In reality, system failure rates are lower than this because not have every single component have this high defect rate.

This assumes random defect. That means there is no design flaw or systematic manufacturing issue. When there are design flaws and system problems, then failure can be higher. In reality, you have a mix of random and system failures.

Defect rates can be broken down further. The defect rates vary with production volume. When components are mass produced over many years, issues are found and fixed. ICs (D/A, Op Amp, Mux) and discrete components (transistors, resistors, capacitors) are mass produced. These have low failures. On the other hand, lower volume manufacturing processes that are unique to each electronic device can have higher failure rates. That is design of the circuit (PCB), manufacturing of PCB, assembly, enclosure, switches, cables, etc.

Lastly, often the issue is not just random defect, but on the standards set up or accepted by the electronics company. Tighter tolerance, increase screening, and increased rejects all end up as cost; which translate to higher product pricing.

 

[Koeitje]

This is too generous or the expectation is too low.

This is more in line reality, but still high for a good product.

Electronics return rate can be like 5%. This is different than defect rate. Return can be due to consumer just changing their mind or not liking the product.

The random component level failure rates are anywhere from 1 to 100 defects per million. Then you might have 10-100 components that make up electronics products. Any of the components can fail. So that is OR (in statistics or mathematics), which is an addition.

So assuming really bad quality across the board for all components, 100 defects per million per component x 100 components in a system = 10000 per million for the system, which is 1% failure. In reality, system failure rates are lower than this because not have every single component have this high defect rate.

This assumes random defect. That means there is no design flaw or systematic manufacturing issue. When there are design flaws and system problems, then failure can be higher. In reality, you have a mix of random and system failures.

Defect rates can be broken down further. The defect rates vary with production volume. When components are mass produced over many years, issues are found and fixed. ICs (D/A, Op Amp, Mux) and discrete components (transistors, resistors, capacitors) are mass produced. These have low failures. On the other hand, lower volume manufacturing processes that are unique to each electronic device can have higher failure rates. That is design of the circuit (PCB), manufacturing of PCB, assembly, enclosure, switches, cables, etc.

Lastly, often the issue is not just random defect, but on the standards set up or accepted by the electronics company. Tighter tolerance, increase screening, and increased rejects all end up as cost; which translate to higher product pricing.

I spend years looking at the defect rates for consumer electronics. It's higher then 1% in de first 2 years for pretty much every piece of consumer electronics on the market.

 

[HBIII]

I would love to buy a USA made headphone amp, and I looked hard to find one… I would be willing to pay $1k-1.5k or maybe even a bit more. But every time I thought I found a candidate the measurements here looked terrible. And I am not one that cares about measurements too much because they only show a small part of the picture. But when I see a 5db channel imbalance or the ability to only produce .095w on a 33ohm load I just can’t buy it. I really didn’t want to buy an amp from one of the newer Chinese brands because not only have I had horrible experiences with such products in the past (unreliable, misleading specs, false certifications, even one catching on fire!), but I am reading the same things about the amps. Like the topping L30 that was ruining headphones. Am I supposed to feel comfortable plugging a 2k pair of headphones into an amp from a company on the other side of planet where I would have no recourse if it damaged my equipment? But here I am looking into them because there is no local competition for even 3x the price. I am not happy with the current situation at all. Maybe we can do some tests for long term reliability here? Then manufacturers would have to improve that aspect of a product instead of just pushing the already inaudible noise floor even lower. When one thing is focused on too much for too long other important things are neglected as we are seeing with these Chinese amps.

 

[Snoopy]

Rebel amp, fluxlabs (Ukraine) , ifi (uk), Fostex , Sony (Japan), Feliks audio (Poland).

And I believe the schiit jotenheim 2 for example measures alright and is plenty powerful.

 

[HBIII]

Rebel amp, fluxlabs (Ukraine) , ifi (uk), Fostex , Sony (Japan), Feliks audio (Poland).

And I believe the schiit jotenheim 2 for example measures alright and is plenty powerful.

None of those are made in the US except the jotenheim which doesn’t perform well with low impedance headphones like my LCDs. And I guess I should have said that balanced inputs and both unbalanced and balanced outputs (or simply convenience connections like the a30pro) are a must since I am in a studio environment… a whole lot of boutique headphone amps are only rca inputs and unbalanced headphone outputs. And tubes on a headphone amp are also not appropriate for a studio situation. But I don’t think I’m being too picky lol.

 

[tlr125]

I would love to buy a USA made headphone amp

Shiit Magnius, the most powerful for 200$, have true balanced connections, measurements are ok

 

[Mnyb]

I would love to buy a USA made headphone amp, and I looked hard to find one… I would be willing to pay $1k-1.5k or maybe even a bit more. But every time I thought I found a candidate the measurements here looked terrible. And I am not one that cares about measurements too much because they only show a small part of the picture. But when I see a 5db channel imbalance or the ability to only produce .095w on a 33ohm load I just can’t buy it. I really didn’t want to buy an amp from one of the newer Chinese brands because not only have I had horrible experiences with such products in the past (unreliable, misleading specs, false certifications, even one catching on fire!), but I am reading the same things about the amps. Like the topping L30 that was ruining headphones. Am I supposed to feel comfortable plugging a 2k pair of headphones into an amp from a company on the other side of planet where I would have no recourse if it damaged my equipment? But here I am looking into them because there is no local competition for even 3x the price. I am not happy with the current situation at all. Maybe we can do some tests for long term reliability here? Then manufacturers would have to improve that aspect of a product instead of just pushing the already inaudible noise floor even lower. When one thing is focused on too much for too long other important things are neglected as we are seeing with these Chinese amps.

If you can accept German made products , RME or Lake People ( or Violelectric lake peoples hifi brand )