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General question on dynamic range and music

danadam

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I don’t think this answers your question, but it’s an interesting data point. Listen to PJ Harvey’s “Rid of Me”. Make sure to turn it up right at the beginning loud enough
In a similar vein, Flim & the BB's - Tricycle
 
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Jochen

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Yeah.

Back to the Redwood Symphony:

View attachment 283651

I'd give it a pessimistic rating of about 35dB to 40dB of "dynamic range"

But the Dynamic Range Database says:

View attachment 283652
And not just that, they take into account only the 20% loudest parts of the track (or at least the older PMF (TT DR Offline Meter) algorithm does).
Ok, so then there seems to something at odds with the measurement method. Is there no way to come up with a transformation to "the real dynamic range" or some better measurement criteria?
 
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Jochen

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It's at least safe to say we don't need higher dynamic range than CD for consumer playback. :)
Maybe for consumer playback, but let's assume somebody has a highly treated, almost anechoic listening room and a really good system. Wouldn't he benefit from more dynamic range?
 

Ifrit

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Ok, so then there seems to something at odds with the measurement method. Is there no way to come up with a transformation to "the real dynamic range" or some better measurement criteria?
Look at the measurements that include minimum RMS and sample peak (or true peak), excluding digital black pauses. Difference between those will be closer to the actual dynamic range.
TT, MAAT (which descended from TT) do not calculate anything lower -30 dbfs, IIRC.
 

Cote Dazur

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Or am I mixing things up?
You are, but do not feel bad, many (most?) are. This would be a wonderful subject for an @amirm video, to demystify and educate all of us. What dynamic can we really hear in a home stereo and HT system? where are the bottle necks?
Can we measure dynamic performance of our own set up?
 

sigbergaudio

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Maybe for consumer playback, but let's assume somebody has a highly treated, almost anechoic listening room and a really good system. Wouldn't he benefit from more dynamic range?

Trust me, you don't want an anechoic listening room. But for argument's sake, let's say he has a 20dB noise floor, and let's assume we can reach 96dB from our CD. Then he would have to play so loud that the highest sounds are 116dB for the softest sounds to still be audible above the noise floor. Not something to do for very long listening sessions at least.

Why would you want greater dynamic range than this? One minute it's so loud it almost hurts, then the next it's so soft you have to strain to hear it over the sound of your own blood flowing in your ears.
 
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Jochen

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Look at the measurements that include minimum RMS and sample peak (or true peak), excluding digital black pauses. Difference between those will be closer to the actual dynamic range.
TT, MAAT (which descended from TT) do not calculate anything lower -30 dbfs, IIRC.
Could you please indicate me where I can find those kind of measurements?
 

-Matt-

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So the consensus seems to be that 16bits of dynamic range are adequate.

...But higher bit depth also allows the waveform to be represented more accurately?

Consider the smallest possible difference in a single waveform sample point. For 16bit would this be -96dB if playing at reference level? Do you need to be able to resolve a smaller difference in level than this? Is it useful to be able to resolve a -144dB change in level?
 
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Jochen

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Trust me, you don't want an anechoic listening room. But for argument's sake, let's say he has a 20dB noise floor, and let's assume we can reach 96dB from our CD. Then he would have to play so loud that the highest sounds are 116dB for the softest sounds to still be audible above the noise floor. Not something to do for very long listening sessions at least.

Why would you want greater dynamic range than this? One minute it's so loud it almost hurts, then the next it's so soft you have to strain to hear it over the sound of your own blood flowing in your ears.
IDK, but wouldn't it be an intenser, more close to live music listening experience? For a short time it is supposedly very interesting, why not? Usually sound quality improves with dynamic range. Maybe there is some saturation above a certain value, but why not try?
 

sigbergaudio

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IDK, but wouldn't it be an intenser, more close to live music listening experience? For a short time it is supposedly very interesting, why not? Usually sound quality improves with dynamic range. Maybe there is some saturation above a certain value, but why not try?

Dynamic range is not directly connected to sound quality at all. It simply indicates how big difference it is between the loudest part of the recording, and the least audible part of the recording.

A live music event would not typically reach anywhere near CD dynamic range either. The music is louder, but the noise floor is also way louder.
 

Cbdb2

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IDK, but wouldn't it be an intenser, more close to live music listening experience? For a short time it is supposedly very interesting, why not? Usually sound quality improves with dynamic range. Maybe there is some saturation above a certain value, but why not try?
Do you have a home theater? Do you find the explosions are too loud because you turned up the volume to hear the dialogue? Thats 20db of dynamics. Do you need more intense than that?
 
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Ifrit

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Could you please indicate me where I can find those kind of measurements?
I look at them in iZotope RX, Waveform Statistics window. Just because I have it, and prefer to use it for various tasks and purposes. There are other software pieces that will do similar things, I'm sure, if I think of one, I'll post here.
 

recycle

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I think there is a misconception to be cleared up about the db's available when recording versus the db's actually delivered.
When recording a performance, we want the maximum dynamics available (in order to catch every little detail): this is where audio interfaces that go up to 24 or 32 bit come handy.
Mastering a project for the end user has a different concept: due to all the reasons already mentioned earlier in the thread, it wouldn't make much sense to deliver a recording that has 40 - 50 or even more db of dynamics. It is true that lately we are exaggerating in squeezing the master and killing the dynamics but this is a trend: sooner or later I think it will end
 

CDMC

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Probably becase a full orchestra might peak around 120dB SPL with what I'd consider a very optimistic hall noise level of 40dB SPL if there is an audience breathing and rustling.

They won't play so softly that you can't hear them.

120 - 40 = 80. Or thereabout.

I think the practical dynamic range in a hall is far less than that. What instrument plays at less than about 70db at its quietest (excluding an electric guitar without an amplifier)? I can't see there being any music played at level below 60db so really outside of hearing the sounds of people rusting around between the music, it seems the real dynamic range is about 60db. Ironically this is about the limit of vinyl in the real world, which some strangely claim has a wider dynamic range the redbook?!!!
 

Sokel

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I was curious how a high DR song actually translates in real listening levels,so:

(the song is "We Are Overwatch")

dr.PNG
 

danadam

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Then he would have to play so loud that the highest sounds are 116dB for the softest sounds to still be audible above the noise floor.
I think, technically, that's true only if those softest sounds have the same spectrum as the noise floor. In other cases (e.g. pure tones) they will be still audible even if they are below noise floor.
 

ahofer

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Walking around with a decibel meter can really help with getting a feel for these things. Settle down in your quietest room and then have a look.

Then look in your car at highway speed.
 
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Jochen

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sigbergaudio

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I think, technically, that's true only if those softest sounds have the same spectrum as the noise floor. In other cases (e.g. pure tones) they will be still audible even if they are below noise floor.

That may be so, but in practice you won't have any sound from the stage playing lower than the noise from the crowd anyway. :) At a classical concert with a wide range piece and a very polite crowd, I'm sure you will find a pretty impressive dynamic range. But it will still not be beyond the full range of a CD.
 
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