General purpose desktop speakers(Adam D3v vs Kali LP unf)

[void_noodles]

My listening environment is like this.

Now I'm using a pair of Alesis elevate 5(older version, not MK II), and feel they lack some clarity. I've seen people talking the Adam D3v and Kali LP UNF and say they're some of the best near field speakers in that price range, so which one would be more suited for my environment? And will this upgrade make audible difference?

 

[SIY]

I'm using Vanatoo T0 with a sub for my desktop and... it's remarkably good, especially the imaging.

 

[Koeitje]

Add a sub to whatever speakers you are using, it will make a massive difference. I use the ADAM T5V with the T10S sub.

 

[void_noodles]

Add a sub to whatever speakers you are using, it will make a massive difference. I use the ADAM T5V with the T10S sub.

Will a 8 inch sub be too big for a 15m^2 bedroom?

 

[kyuu]

Both are good options, but you should also check out the Vanatoo options. As SIY indicated, they actually seem to be quite good, particularly the newer plus versions. Integrated subwoofer out with a 4th order crossover is a nice bonus that you don't often get on these lower cost active speakers.

Transparent Zero Plus review
Transparent One Encore Plus review

 

[kyuu]

Will a 8 inch sub be too big for a 15m^2 bedroom?

No such thing as too big (as long as you're okay with it aesthetically). If it's too loud, you just turn down the volume knob. Although ideally you'd use some room correction to tame the inevitable room mode-induced peaks.

 

[ivayvr]

I can't comment on your current speakers or other options mentioned since I have no experience with any of these.
I own Adam D3V and if you are looking for improved clarity I am confident they will satisfy that criteria. They have excellent imaging and a very reasonable bottom end.
They have a very decent connectivity and they come with their own stands (if you need them).
As always, it would be the best if you could hear them an see if there is anything bothering you sound wise. Hopefully, they should not sound much different in your room if you are using them near field.

 

[AnalogSteph]

That looks like listening distance will be the better part of 1 m. I wouldn't want to downgrade in size and look at some 5" class monitors again (maybe KRK RP5 G5; if you still need something to interface to an unbalanced output on the computer, a Behringer HD400 in between should do the job).

Either way, that looks like quite a challenging listening environment. Walls flanking a 1.60 m desk on both sides, and a window at the back, too? That's like listening in a closet. Taking measurements and applying acoustic treatment may be very useful.

 

[Koeitje]

Will a 8 inch sub be too big for a 15m^2 bedroom?

No, I'm going to say 8" is probably what you want. You need a combination of surface area vs size of the sub that works in a small room, you can use a 15" sub no problem in a room like that; you just won't ever push it anywhere near what its capable of.. Try to find a sub that has outputs for your speakers, so you can go from source -> sub -> speakers. That way you can use the crossover in the sub to make sure your mains don't get <80hz (or whatever) so they can play with less distortion. You can of course just start with just the speakers, I'm just saying that a sub really adds a new dimension to smaller monitors.

 

[void_noodles]

That looks like listening distance will be the better part of 1 m. I wouldn't want to downgrade in size and look at some 5" class monitors again (maybe KRK RP5 G5; if you still need something to interface to an unbalanced output on the computer, a Behringer HD400 in between should do the job).

Either way, that looks like quite a challenging listening environment. Walls flanking a 1.60 m desk on both sides, and a window at the back, too? That's like listening in a closet. Taking measurements and applying acoustic treatment may be very useful.

I have a DAC with 2.5mm balanced output, maybe that would do the job?

 

[void_noodles]

No, I'm going to say 8" is probably what you want. You need a combination of surface area vs size of the sub that works in a small room, you can use a 15" sub no problem in a room like that; you just won't ever push it anywhere near what its capable of.. Try to find a sub that has outputs for your speakers, so you can go from source -> sub -> speakers. That way you can use the crossover in the sub to make sure your mains don't get <80hz (or whatever) so they can play with less distortion. You can of course just start with just the speakers, I'm just saying that a sub really adds a new dimension to smaller monitors.

By just start with the speakers do you mean using software like Equalizer APO to manually set the output from my PC to have a cutoff frequency like 80Hz? No experience with the software but had heard of it before.

 

[AnalogSteph]

No, he meant "you can start out with just the main speakers and no sub". These days, it is actually not unusual even for relatively budget 5" class monitors to dig fairly deep (e.g. all of JBL 305P MkII, KRK RP5 G5 and ADAM T5V have -10 dB points in the mid-40s Hz, which is starting to approach full spectrum), so you shouldn't have to be acutely unhappy with the bottom end even "barefoot". The -3 dB points and level handling like that are going to vary, of course.

Getting a measurement mic for use with REW or whatnot and a system-wide PEQ like Equalizer APO is generally advisable, frequency response tends to be more subject to series variation in budget monitors than in more upscale models and of course you can never escape room modes.

I don't think EQ APO will do bass management... you'd normally do that elsewhere in the sound stack (check your output device's Effects tab) or in the player application, or via an external DSP altogether. Some juggling with virtual audio cables and a local instance of CamillaDSP may also work. Since this is all quite a fuss, a lot of studio subs have built-in crossovers so you can loop through your mains there.

 

[AnotherGreenWorld]

Both are good options, but you should also check out the Vanatoo options. As SIY indicated, they actually seem to be quite good, particularly the newer plus versions. Integrated subwoofer out with a 4th order crossover is a nice bonus that you don't often get on these lower cost active speakers.

Transparent Zero Plus review
Transparent One Encore Plus review

I recently picked up Vanatoo Transparent One Encore Plus, and generally run them without a sub after using JBL LSR305s with a PreSonus Temblor T10 sub for music production and listening. After moving to a smaller apartment last year, the sub just activated the wooden floor too much (I mostly produce late at night when wife and neighbors are sleeping).

I listen at very low levels (generally 70-82 or so dB) and find the Vanatoo's bass extension (with the bass control on back turned up 40-50%) deep and enjoyable for a wide range of electronic, jazz, classical, ambient and rock/pop. I find the Vanatoos considerably more pleasant than the JBLs which I found hissy for <= 1 meter, accurate but leaning harsh, bass-shy without a sub - though I've used the JBLs to make mixes that other producers and my mastering engineer couldn't fault.

 

[Koeitje]

By just start with the speakers do you mean using software like Equalizer APO to manually set the output from my PC to have a cutoff frequency like 80Hz? No experience with the software but had heard of it before.

No, he meant "you can start out with just the main speakers and no sub". These days, it is actually not unusual even for relatively budget 5" class monitors to dig fairly deep (e.g. all of JBL 305P MkII, KRK RP5 G5 and ADAM T5V have -10 dB points in the mid-40s Hz, which is starting to approach full spectrum), so you shouldn't have to be acutely unhappy with the bottom end even "barefoot". The -3 dB points and level handling like that are going to vary, of course.

Getting a measurement mic for use with REW or whatnot and a system-wide PEQ like Equalizer APO is generally advisable, frequency response tends to be more subject to series variation in budget monitors than in more upscale models and of course you can never escape room modes.

I don't think EQ APO will do bass management... you'd normally do that elsewhere in the sound stack (check your output device's Effects tab) or in the player application, or via an external DSP altogether. Some juggling with virtual audio cables and a local instance of CamillaDSP may also work. Since this is all quite a fuss, a lot of studio subs have built-in crossovers so you can loop through your mains there.

Yeah, starting with just the monitors is what I meant. You can always add a sub.

Also, I consider 5" speakers to generally be the minimum you need to have some output in the low end. Go smaller than 5" and you will run struggle to get some bass even at desk level outputs.

You can do bass management with EQ APO in terms of getting rid of the peaks after you measure where they are, but you use the sub to handle the crossover. When not using a sub, don't cutoff at 80Hz.....I mean you do want some bass right .

 

[void_noodles]

I recently picked up Vanatoo Transparent One Encore Plus, and generally run them without a sub after using JBL LSR305s with a PreSonus Temblor T10 sub for music production and listening. After moving to a smaller apartment last year, the sub just activated the wooden floor too much (I mostly produce late at night when wife and neighbors are sleeping).

I listen at very low levels (generally 70-82 or so dB) and find the Vanatoo's bass extension (with the bass control on back turned up 40-50%) deep and enjoyable for a wide range of electronic, jazz, classical, ambient and rock/pop. I find the Vanatoos considerably more pleasant than the JBLs which I found hissy for <= 1 meter, accurate but leaning harsh, bass-shy without a sub - though I've used the JBLs to make mixes that other producers and my mastering engineer couldn't fault.

I also live in a small flat, so maybe a sub isn't very suited?
The Vanatoo Transparent One seems interesting, but I can't find a dealer here in China, online or offline, so it isn't an option for me...

 

[void_noodles]

No, he meant "you can start out with just the main speakers and no sub". These days, it is actually not unusual even for relatively budget 5" class monitors to dig fairly deep (e.g. all of JBL 305P MkII, KRK RP5 G5 and ADAM T5V have -10 dB points in the mid-40s Hz, which is starting to approach full spectrum), so you shouldn't have to be acutely unhappy with the bottom end even "barefoot". The -3 dB points and level handling like that are going to vary, of course.

Getting a measurement mic for use with REW or whatnot and a system-wide PEQ like Equalizer APO is generally advisable, frequency response tends to be more subject to series variation in budget monitors than in more upscale models and of course you can never escape room modes.

I don't think EQ APO will do bass management... you'd normally do that elsewhere in the sound stack (check your output device's Effects tab) or in the player application, or via an external DSP altogether. Some juggling with virtual audio cables and a local instance of CamillaDSP may also work. Since this is all quite a fuss, a lot of studio subs have built-in crossovers so you can loop through your mains there.

I see from the specs that JBL 305p can reach 49Hz +/-3dB, KRK RP5 G5 is 54 Hz, will that make a significant difference? And Adam D3v and T5v both listed as 45Hz -6dB, how? One is 3.5 in and the other is 5 in, and both from the same manufacturer.

 

[unpluggged]

And Adam D3v and T5v both listed as 45Hz -6dB, how? One is 3.5 in and the other is 5 in, and both from the same manufacturer.

At different SPL and/or different THD.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Indeed. You can electronically bass-boost a small speaker to hell and back, but that's not going to change its excursion-related limits in terms of level handling down there. This is known as Hoffmann's Iron Law - small, deep, loud, pick any two. This is why e.g. the D3V has various bass shelf options to choose from, and why the iLoud Micros' DSP will throttle back the bass output at higher levels (which apparently can lead to some odd artifacts during music playback at elevated volumes but seems to work quite well for gaming). Speakers in this size class would not be viable without a bunch of help from the electronics department, alongside ultra nearfield listening around 0.5 m.

Physics work against smaller drivers on several fronts: Radiation area is the obvious one (Sd for a 5" driver is about twice as large as for a 3.5", and up to 3 times as large for an 8" vs. a 5"), but maximum excursion tends to shrink as well, which is two strikes against the bass department. Not to mention the lower efficiency so you have to stuff in more power for the same output, which is not going to help distortion related to electrical nonlinearity any (plus, smaller voice coils tend to have lower power dissipation).

You can address excursion, linearity over excursion, electrical nonlinearity and power dissipation with solid engineering, but that's going to cost you dearly - if Purifi were to release a 3" driver, I reckon the pair would cost about as much as the complete D3V set, making a complete speaker insanely expensive. Something like the iLoud Micro Monitor Pros is likely to be about the maximum that the market for tiny speakers that pack a punch will support. Those are actually more expensive than a pair of 8" ADAM T8V, and take a guess as to which one will go louder (by no small margin at that). Apples and oranges, I know, but just to illustrate the point: When you're picking a fight with physics, physics have a habit of giving you a hard time.

That being said, there is quite a bit of variation within each size class left, so the fight is not entirely hopeless. A good 5" class monitor like the Neumann KH120 II has drivers that come very close to a good budget 8" like the ADAM T8V (and will surpass a mediocre one), and those drivers actually are maybe 6 dB short of Purifi levels still. Kali and JBL budget 5" to 8" drivers may be some of the worst for electrical nonlinearity (but tend to provide decent enough excursion), it's a good thing Kali released some 3-ways.

 

[void_noodles]

Indeed. You can electronically bass-boost a small speaker to hell and back, but that's not going to change its excursion-related limits in terms of level handling down there. This is known as Hoffmann's Iron Law - small, deep, loud, pick any two. This is why e.g. the D3V has various bass shelf options to choose from, and why the iLoud Micros' DSP will throttle back the bass output at higher levels (which apparently can lead to some odd artifacts during music playback at elevated volumes but seems to work quite well for gaming). Speakers in this size class would not be viable without a bunch of help from the electronics department, alongside ultra nearfield listening around 0.5 m.

Physics work against smaller drivers on several fronts: Radiation area is the obvious one (Sd for a 5" driver is about twice as large as for a 3.5", and up to 3 times as large for an 8" vs. a 5"), but maximum excursion tends to shrink as well, which is two strikes against the bass department. Not to mention the lower efficiency so you have to stuff in more power for the same output, which is not going to help distortion related to electrical nonlinearity any (plus, smaller voice coils tend to have lower power dissipation).

You can address excursion, linearity over excursion, electrical nonlinearity and power dissipation with solid engineering, but that's going to cost you dearly - if Purifi were to release a 3" driver, I reckon the pair would cost about as much as the complete D3V set, making a complete speaker insanely expensive. Something like the iLoud Micro Monitor Pros is likely to be about the maximum that the market for tiny speakers that pack a punch will support. Those are actually more expensive than a pair of 8" ADAM T8V, and take a guess as to which one will go louder (by no small margin at that). Apples and oranges, I know, but just to illustrate the point: When you're picking a fight with physics, physics have a habit of giving you a hard time.

That being said, there is quite a bit of variation within each size class left, so the fight is not entirely hopeless. A good 5" class monitor like the Neumann KH120 II has drivers that come very close to a good budget 8" like the ADAM T8V (and will surpass a mediocre one), and those drivers actually are maybe 6 dB short of Purifi levels still. Kali and JBL budget 5" to 8" drivers may be some of the worst for electrical nonlinearity (but tend to provide decent enough excursion), it's a good thing Kali released some 3-ways.

So if size and weight is not that big a constraint, a good budget 7" or 8" will perform equal, if not better than a more premium 5" that is even more expensive with a bunch of DSP stuff, is that right?

And how about coaxial monitors? I saw people suggesting things like Tannoy Gold 8 or Fluid Audio FPX7, I think they're interesting but doesn't seem to be very widely used.

 

[Koeitje]

I also live in a small flat, so maybe a sub isn't very suited?
The Vanatoo Transparent One seems interesting, but I can't find a dealer here in China, online or offline, so it isn't an option for me...

I live in a small apartment, a sub is no problem for normal listening levels.