Genelec W371A + The Ones : My quest for the Grail is over

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

Using GLM

Do you like the ruler flat response without using a shelving filter? I like ruler flat, but many seem to disagree, so I am curious about your experience.

A general question. In 5.1 setups, would it be workable to bass manage the LFE channel and all bass below the center and surround channels (5.2 8351b setup) to the W371a’s?

The Trinnov bass management can do this. (You route all bass below a given frequency by a given crossover slope to Left and Right, for example)

I like simplistic setups, and if I would choose the W371a route. I don’t want W371a’s AND subwoofers.

Last, if the W371a is the holy grail to combat room modes, I want these excellent bass results for all sources, including cinema and surround.

 

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

For those who haven't seen it yet (I am sorry if posted already, and I have missed it), It's impressive to see how adding the W371a fixed the massive suckout between 40Hz & 50Hz and effectively provided a ruler flat response to 20Hz.

Genelec 8351B & W371A

This impressive setup combines point‑source technology, advanced loudspeaker management DSP and a powerful new bass extension system. Is this the state of the art in studio monitoring?

www.soundonsound.com

 

[Fredygump]

Using GLM

Oh, so you're comparing two different Genelec systems? I feel like you're burying the lead! Here I assumed you had some home theater subwoofers or something....

 

[onion]

Oh, so you're comparing two different Genelec systems? I feel like you're burying the lead! Here I assumed you had some home theater subwoofers or something....

should have made it clearer - the multisubs were 2 7360s and 1 7350, all Genelecs

 

[Fredygump]

should have made it clearer - the multisubs were 2 7360s and 1 7350, all Genelecs

Because of your comment I started doing more experimentation with my setup. I was using them as multiple subs, so I started playing around with a higher crossover for the front woofer.

It seems promising, but I didn't get it right the first try! I think I can figure it out, but It's going to take some work to teach myself how to configure it out. There are a lot of variables! It's actually quite different from what just multiple subs.

 

[onion]

Do you like the ruler flat response without using a shelving filter? I like ruler flat, but many seem to disagree, so I am curious about your experience.

A general question. In 5.1 setups, would it be workable to bass manage the LFE channel and all bass below the center and surround channels (5.2 8351b setup) to the W371a’s?

The Trinnov bass management can do this. (You route all bass below a given frequency by a given crossover slope to Left and Right, for example)

I like simplistic setups, and if I would choose the W371a route. I don’t want W371a’s AND subwoofers.

Last, if the W371a is the holy grail to combat room modes, I want these excellent bass results for all sources, including cinema and surround.

I don't know the answer to a lot of your questions. I would say that the W371a is paired with a speaker and does not work independently of a Ones speaker, so for surround setups, you would need 5 or 7 W371as for the base layer.

 

[aland]

Which of Genelec's modes are you using to get this result? I'm asking for science! I have a DIY version of this speaker, and I have spent approx 1 year guessing about what Genelec is and is not doing with the various modes. I would guess you are using the "Adaptive"? This result you are posting does look similar to the type of results I am getting.

I appreciate the insight into their system. It is encouraging to me because I had no idea how "perfect" a response curve they were trying to achieve.

It still doesn't definitively answer what technique they are using, but it makes me think I'm on the right track!

That was in complementary mode. X-over @ 250hz.

 

[Hörzone]

if someone in Germany is interested in listening to the Combination One + W371, you can do it at Audiopro in Heilbronn, at Genelec in Berlin and at my Demo in Munich, in any "One" Configuration or also with S360

 

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

I don't know the answer to a lot of your questions. I would say that the W371a is paired with a speaker and does not work independently of a Ones speaker, so for surround setups, you would need 5 or 7 W371as for the base layer.

Thanks for your reply,
Actually with the Trinnov bass management it’s possible to route bass from all channels to just the left and right Genelecs with the W371A.

I will have to go to the Beijing Genelec experience centre to hear them and decide if they are convincing enough to give up my (multi) subwoofer system.

 

[Kervel]

Thanks for your reply,
Actually with the Trinnov bass management it’s possible to route bass from all channels to just the left and right Genelecs with the W371A.

I will have to go to the Beijing Genelec experience centre to hear them and decide if they are convincing enough to give up my (multi) subwoofer system.

You dont need a fancy Trinnov for this (although it would have other benefits). I think any standard AVR can be set to say 5.0 or 7.0, with FL and FR set to full range. Those 2 channels would get the .1 and sub frequencies routed to them. Then you just connect the AVR with FR 8351, and pass-through the signal from 8351 to W371. Same for FL channel.

 

[onion]

Thanks for your reply,
Actually with the Trinnov bass management it’s possible to route bass from all channels to just the left and right Genelecs with the W371A.

I will have to go to the Beijing Genelec experience centre to hear them and decide if they are convincing enough to give up my (multi) subwoofer system.

I'll be interested to see how you get on with this. I think the W371a excels in the freq range 50-350Hz and if you enjoy lower frequencies, multisub may do better.

 

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

You dont need a fancy Trinnov for this (although it would have other benefits). I think any standard AVR can be set to say 5.0 or 7.0, with FL and FR set to full range. Those 2 channels would get the .1 and sub frequencies routed to them. Then you just connect the AVR with FR 8351, and pass-through the signal from 8351 to W371. Same for FL channel.

Yeah I figured that actually most processors should be able to do that.

 

[feitaishi]

Thanks for your reply,
Actually with the Trinnov bass management it’s possible to route bass from all channels to just the left and right Genelecs with the W371A.

I will have to go to the Beijing Genelec experience centre to hear them and decide if they are convincing enough to give up my (multi) subwoofer system.

welcome to Beijing. I'm more than happy to help you.

 

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

welcome to Beijing. I'm more than happy to help you.

Thank you very much in advance. It will be around early July. I will send you a PM to make an appointment. I look forward!

 

[srrxr71]

I did a very stupid thing. I have a tv screen in between. Finally I had the sense to put bass traps between them and the TV. Wow.

Huge difference.

I’m getting numbers above 95 in the flatness and correlation.

 

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

I did a very stupid thing. I have a tv screen in between. Finally I could put bass traps between them and the TV. Wow.

Huge difference.

I’m getting numbers above 95 in the flatness and correlation.

Constantly, nearly any measurements of W371A owners display a ruler flat bass response to 20Hz. That's impressive. Is this in complementary mode?
Can you describe the sound compared to multi-sub or subwoofers in general? Is it like your room (walls disappear)? Do you hear an effortless, tactile bass response as you usually get outdoors or in massive big rooms?

Though no one knows what Genelec is doing, I'd like to know if the system (only) assigns and selects crossover between each bass driver at the point of the lowest dip? or does the DSP also apply some bass-steering, phase/time tricks to steer bass?

Last but not least, from our multi-sub journey, we know that if one subwoofer measures flat, the result will vastly differ when you combine multiple room-corrected subs. Since W371A is effectively calibrated individually per channel (not as a mixed pair), the sum of two individually corrected W371A potentially isn't flat anymore. Any thoughts?

 

[Fredygump]

Constantly, nearly any measurements of W371A owners display a ruler flat bass response to 20Hz. That's impressive. Is this in complementary mode?
Can you describe the sound compared to multi-sub or subwoofers in general? Is it like your room (walls disappear)? Do you hear an effortless, tactile bass response as you usually get outdoors or in massive big rooms?

Though no one knows what Genelec is doing, I'd like to know if the system (only) assigns and selects crossover between each bass driver at the point of the lowest dip? or does the DSP also apply some bass-steering, phase/time tricks to steer bass?

Last but not least, from our multi-sub journey, we know that if one subwoofer measures flat, the result will vastly differ when you combine multiple room-corrected subs. Since W371A is effectively calibrated individually per channel (not as a mixed pair), the sum of two individually corrected W371A potentially isn't flat anymore. Any thoughts?

In my design I am summing everything below 100hz, and then I am aligning both subwoofers so they produce a flat response together. The theory is that you want the two drivers to interact, and for that to happen they both need to be producing the same sound. If each produces a slightly different sound, it will reduce the way they interact.

Onion's post showed the low frequencies are good, but not flat when measured individually. He did not do a combined left and right measurement also, but I suspect the combined measurement is better. In my application, I use delays on the subwoofers (20-100hz) so they combine with the woofers to be relatively flat. And this can be calculated accurately in REW, so I am sure Genelec can do the same.

And then they use EQs to get it the rest of the way. They have something silly like 24 parametric EQs per channel! I only have 8.....

I am not doing much with EQ on the low end, because as mentioned fixing one area in the room will negatively affect another area. As-is, it is close enough for me, and pretty consistent throughout the room.

More in depth info into what I have done, which may (or may not?) be similar to what Genelec is doing: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...381a-style-speaker-system.45223/#post-1612242

 

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

In my design I am summing everything below 100hz, and then I am aligning both subwoofers so they produce a flat response together. The theory is that you want the two drivers to interact, and for that to happen they both need to be producing the same sound. If each produces a slightly different sound, it will reduce the way they interact.

Exactly that! I always believed in the concept that one should sum all bass below a certain frequency and utilize all woofers to correct by bass-steering. Kinda what DIRAC does and the upcoming Trinnov active bass steering/absorbing.

Thanks for sharing. I will study your creation!

 

[srrxr71]

Constantly, nearly any measurements of W371A owners display a ruler flat bass response to 20Hz. That's impressive. Is this in complementary mode?
Can you describe the sound compared to multi-sub or subwoofers in general? Is it like your room (walls disappear)? Do you hear an effortless, tactile bass response as you usually get outdoors or in massive big rooms?

Though no one knows what Genelec is doing, I'd like to know if the system (only) assigns and selects crossover between each bass driver at the point of the lowest dip? or does the DSP also apply some bass-steering, phase/time tricks to steer bass?

Last but not least, from our multi-sub journey, we know that if one subwoofer measures flat, the result will vastly differ when you combine multiple room-corrected subs. Since W371A is effectively calibrated individually per channel (not as a mixed pair), the sum of two individually corrected W371A potentially isn't flat anymore. Any thoughts?

I’m running in complementary mode.

I noticed my left and right graphs are fairly identical and the GRADE report shows fairly equal impulse response on both. That wasn’t always the case and if you read the 33 pages they send you they discuss a lot.

Putting them closer and creating a reflection free path to my ears really changed things.

I have never done multi sub. However before the w371 I had 2x7360. The bass is just different. The biggest gain is in realistic mid bass.

Nothing I could do with those subs helped above 100Hz. Also there was always some dip or another which I could not control for. Usually some massive dip around 120Hz.

The w371 has corrected all that for me.

When the Trinnov Nova arrives the plan to is connect the 7360s behind my listening position. But the eventual goal is to sell the expensive 7360s and replace them with Rythmik subs.

With a 6 channel max I could add 4 subs. Now they did not announce if the Nova does all that MSMC stuff. That is a free upgrade for their cinema processors.

I hope the Nova has all those features within the limitations of having 6 channels.

 

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

I’m running in complementary mode.

I noticed my left and right graphs are fairly identical and the GRADE report shows fairly equal impulse response on both. That wasn’t always the case and if you read the 33 pages they send you they discuss a lot.

Putting them closer and creating a reflection free path to my ears really changed things.

I have never done multi sub. However before the w371 I had 2x7360. The bass is just different. The biggest gain is in realistic mid bass.

Nothing I could do with those subs helped above 100Hz. Also there was always some dip or another which I could not control for. Usually some massive dip around 120Hz.

The w371 has corrected all that for me.

When the Trinnov Nova arrives the plan to is connect the 7360s behind my listening position. But the eventual goal is to sell the expensive 7360s and replace them with Rythmik subs.

With a 6 channel max I could add 4 subs. Now they did not announce if the Nova does all that MSMC stuff. That is a free upgrade for their cinema processors.

I hope the Nova has all those features within the limitations of having 6 channels.

Sorry, I am still catching up with the fascinating 31 pages . You and I are on the same page. The new Trinnov Nova is a new milestone for Trinnov, and I am also fond of Rythmik subwoofers. I have only heard the F12SE and was seriously impressed with its tactile response.

So, despite reaching flat to 20Hz, you still miss the room-shaking sub-bass? I can echo this. My current SVS PC-4000 Excel (in my room) is between 15Hz. and 25Hz. This region is rarely present, but when a movie scene provides it... boy, you are in for a treat!