Genelec setups in living rooms [how to]

[jhenderson0107]

...I could easily get a pair of monitors in my living room but would never ever put these things in there...

One man's toxic sludge is another man's potpourri. These are machines to make sound, which they do well. Beautiful to some beholders, like a refrigerator or flat panel display or iphone via their fitness-for-purpose.

 

[test1223]

Yes , I have read this paper . Theres is no information that says that a certain distance sound best from the speakers .
Just some facts of direct sound , spl and distance to reverberant sound , thats mandatory for all speakers in rooms, not just Genelecs.

There are no differences in the way a good measuring monitor is constructed to sound good at 2 or 5 meters . If it measures well , according to Harman criteries and Amirms Klippel testing - it will sound good at any distances . The balance between direct and reverberant sound is true for every speaker in a room and depends on the size of the room , the distance from listener to speakers, and the Acoustics in the room . Horn speakers are spreading the sound in a more narrow way, which can be an advantage in a lively room with little acoustic treatments.

Every loudspeaker on this earth will be playing music in the reverberant field If the room is untreated and at long distances .
Its not something thats special for Genelec speakers - this thing happens with all speakers at a certain distance in a normal room .

This is important though - because of the law of distance , there might not be enough spl with smaller speakers in a bigger room.

I don't get your logic? On the one hand you admit that the listening distance and ratio of direct to reverberations play a roll on the other hand you deny that a speaker has a sweet spot listening distance?

You can't build a speaker for all listening distances since a more and more narrow directivity is needed to get enough direct sound at the listening position.

You even give the fitting example of a horn. Of cause the room plays an important role for choosing the right listening distance. Since a studio is more absorbing than almost any living room you have to choose even shorter listening distances as a rule of thumb.

A typical near field monitor has it's sweet spot of direct vs. reflected sound at about 1m and a main monitor at about 3m. Longer listening distances need very big speakers with really narrow beam or line arrays or such stuff to give a good ratio of direct sound to reverberations.

There is plenty of research on this topic and as far as I know no one is denying the importance of having enough direct sound at the listening position.

You can check if the ratio of direct vs. reverberations is about right with measurements like frequencies dependent RT30 or RT60. You use here the speakers as source and a microphone at the listening position.

In short a near field monitor didn't provide enough direct sound if the listening distance is shorter than about 1m in almost all living rooms. Not enough direct sound gives you inexact sound and you can get a double room effect and other negative stuff.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I don't get your logic? On the one hand you admit that the listening distance and ratio of direct to reverberations play a roll on the other hand you deny that a speaker has a sweet spot listening distance?

You can't build a speaker for all listening distances since a more and more narrow directivity is needed to get enough direct sound at the listening position.

You even give the fitting example of a horn. Of cause the room plays an important role for choosing the right listening distance. Since a studio is more absorbing than almost any living room you have to choose even shorter listening distances as a rule of thumb.

A typical near field monitor has it's sweet spot of direct vs. reflected sound at about 1m and a main monitor at about 3m. Longer listening distances need very big speakers with really narrow beam or line arrays or such stuff to give a good ratio of direct sound to reverberations.

There is plenty of research on this topic and as far as I know no one is denying the importance of having enough direct sound at the listening position.

You can check if the ratio of direct vs. reverberations is about right with measurements like frequencies dependent RT30 or RT60. You use here the speakers as source and a microphone at the listening position.

In short a near field monitor didn't provide enough direct sound if the listening distance is shorter than about 1m in almost all living rooms. Not enough direct sound gives you inexact sound and you can get a double room effect and other negative stuff.

Yeah but what exactly is a "near field monitor"?
Is the the 8361A "near field" or "mid field"?
I doubt they're useful @ only 1m
How do you actually define a near field monitor?

 

[test1223]

Yeah but what exactly is a "near field monitor"?
Is the the 8361A "near field" or "mid field"?
I doubt they're useful @ only 1m
How do you actually define a near field monitor?

This is exactly the right question.

All near field monitors provide a lower sound power directivity index over the important frequencies from 300Hz to 4kHz.

Genelec provides with the direct sound table an estimate how good the monitors works at a different distances. https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors
The important side condition is the room size and treatment and the positions of the speakers and listener which also has to be taken into account, but ultimately doesn't transform a near field monitor in a far field monitor. This is due to the limited amount of realistic room treatment and size differences.

The 8361 is a unique monitor which for it's size has a wide spread in the higher frequencies and a more narrow spread in the bass. Given the coaxial design it can work in the nearfield but also in the midfield.

Since the frequency dependant reverberation time as described earlier is important and most people claim that a constant value over all frequencies is the optimum, you can optimize the room acoustics accordingly.
There are recommendations for this RT60 from the EBU which also work at home.

Listening Conditions for the Assessment of Mono & Stereo Sound

Listening conditions relevant for the critical assessment and selection of programme material and to sound control rooms used for the critical assessment of sound quality as a part of the broadcast production process are specified in this document.|

tech.ebu.ch

If the reflections are later and diffuse a slightly higher constant RT60 value has also some advantages.

Good set-ups which follow these rules sound significantly better than RT60 miss matches.

 

[mumadadd]

Loved this one
View attachment 219117

B-loody hell!

 

[F1308]

B-loody hell!

Regardless of the astounding equipment, the bass is nevertheless restricted to 340.294*(((T+273.15)/288.15)^0.5)/2/L, being T temperature in Celsius and L the length in meters of the room the loudspeakers are pointed to, isn't it ?

 

[F1308]

Regardless of the astounding equipment, the bass is nevertheless restricted to 340.294*(((T+273.15)/288.15)^0.5)/2/L, being T temperature in Celsius and L the length in meters of the room the loudspeakers are pointed to, isn't it ?

The funny thing about this equation is the temperature.

We have been told that the minimum detected variation in pitch is 5 cents, known as Just Noticeable Difference in Pitch.
A semitone, equal temperament, has 100 cents.
Set A4, MIDI #69, to 440 Hz and the lowest key (A0, MIDI #21) is 27.5 Hz, 88-key keyboard piano.
At this frequency a 5 cents change means
5/1200*log(X/27.5) going down, X being 27.42069 and 5/1200*log(27.5/X) going up, X being 27.57954. A mean change of say 0.08 will do.
Yes, we will detect 8/100 of an Hertz !!!!
If the length of the room is 6.2 meters to grant 27.5 Hz, any 2 degrees of temperature variation ( 15-17-19-21-23-25-27 ) will affect the lower bass in a range human beings will detect it, 0.5656 Hz in pitch change from 15 C to 27 C.

Same computing for bass at 16 Hz, but calling for a room offering 11 meters, equates 5 cents to a mere 5/100 Hertz, the temperature change remaining at 2 C to detect the changes, 0.3188 Hz variation in pitch this time, also going 15 C to 27 C.

At last, peace of mind, I understand why my equipment was offering "more body" in winter at 15 C than in summer, at 27 C.

Then comes relative humidity...

Humidity, Concert Hall Sound & Spectral Tilt

www.stereophile.com

 

[F1308]

This is exactly the right question.

All near field monitors provide a lower sound power directivity index over the important frequencies from 300Hz to 4kHz.

Genelec provides with the direct sound table an estimate how good the monitors works at a different distances. https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors
The important side condition is the room size and treatment and the positions of the speakers and listener which also has to be taken into account, but ultimately doesn't transform a near field monitor in a far field monitor. This is due to the limited amount of realistic room treatment and size differences.

The 8361 is a unique monitor which for it's size has a wide spread in the higher frequencies and a more narrow spread in the bass. Given the coaxial design it can work in the nearfield but also in the midfield.

Since the frequency dependant reverberation time as described earlier is important and most people claim that a constant value over all frequencies is the optimum, you can optimize the room acoustics accordingly.
There are recommendations for this RT60 from the EBU which also work at home.

Listening Conditions for the Assessment of Mono & Stereo Sound

Listening conditions relevant for the critical assessment and selection of programme material and to sound control rooms used for the critical assessment of sound quality as a part of the broadcast production process are specified in this document.|

tech.ebu.ch

If the reflections are later and diffuse a slightly higher constant RT60 value has also some advantages.

Good set-ups which follow these rules sound significantly better than RT60 miss matches.

After reading that paper from Genelec, where is said that..." below 16 Hz, Not audible for humans." I have some books here dealing with the tuning of musical instruments and they state 15 Hz is the LOWEST AUDIBLE frequency for humans to be perceived as a CONTINUOUS, NON BEATING sound".
So lower than 15 Hz is still heard, but as a beat.

Also, very funny seeing them showing tables starting from 65 m2, 13x5 or 8x8 room !

Edit: I was warned by JiiPee that it is volume and not surface, better matching home room sizes. Thank you. Where can my glasses have got to...?

 

[JiiPee]

After reading that paper from Genelec, where is said that..." below 16 Hz, Not audible for humans." I have some books here dealing with the tuning of musical instruments and they state 15 Hz is the LOWEST AUDIBLE frequency for humans to be perceived as a CONTINUOUS, NON BEATING sound".
So lower than 15 Hz is still heard, but as a beat.

Also, very funny seeing them showing tables starting from 65 m2, 13x5 or 8x8 room !

It is room volume table starting at 65 m3, which in a typical European flat with a 2.6m room height means 25m2 area i.e 5x5, or about 4x6.25.

 

[F1308]

It is room volume table starting at 65 m3, which in a typical European flat with a 2.6m room height means 25m2 area i.e 5x5, or about 4x6.25.

Thank you !!!!
Much better.

 

[Nattage]

Added a 7361 sub, a 8441 centre and a tonewinner AV processor. Surrounds are little 8021s.

 

[Nattage]

Sorry 8331 centre, 7360A sub

 

[Nattage]

The tonewinner at300 isn't good enough (for my tastes) for streamed and flac music, for that I feed the sub and left and right with digital, from a toppings d10s, fed and powered by raspberry pi running Ripieee a Roon endpoint. Also have a cheap amazon caox/optical switch, so I can have posh stereo from the TV. I fancy MiniDSP SHD studio, to replace the switch, raspberry pi and Topping, but that'd be a lot of money for a tidy up and not much more functionality or sound improvement (if any).

 

[Zzzzz...]

View attachment 236656
Added a 7361 sub, a 8441 centre and a tonewinner AV processor. Surrounds are little 8021s.

If you don't mind me asking, what chairs are those? (They very nicely colour match your speakers BTW )

 

[YSC]

actually can I say that the most impressive setup for me is the one with a few the ones on top of a TV, and he used to play playstation

 

[Kervel]

I fancy MiniDSP SHD studio, to replace the switch, raspberry pi and Topping, but that'd be a lot of money for a tidy up and not much more functionality or sound improvement (if any).

You might want to consider an automatic input switch like this one. I've owned it for a few years and it works wonderfully:

Automatic SPDIF (Optical/RCA) Audio Switch by Beni_Skate on Tindie

Automatic Optical/RCA SPDIF Audio Switch with Optical/RCA SPDIF Output and additional high quality Audio DAC

www.tindie.com

 

[Nattage]

If you don't mind me asking, what chairs are those? (They very nicely colour match your speakers BTW )

Stressless chairs

 

[JamesYeomans]

You might want to consider an automatic input switch like this one. I've owned it for a few years and it works wonderfully:

Automatic SPDIF (Optical/RCA) Audio Switch by Beni_Skate on Tindie

Automatic Optical/RCA SPDIF Audio Switch with Optical/RCA SPDIF Output and additional high quality Audio DAC

www.tindie.com

These switches work great with my Genelecs too. They're so good I bought 3

 

[Ardrazzt]

3x 8351b, 4x 8020d, 2x Arendal 1s, JBL SDP-55. And yeah, lots of Glass...

View attachment 218966

How are the 8020D in that configuration? Crossover point? distance to MLP? I'm considering a similar configuration but I hesitate about the 8320 being too "weak" Are you using GLM? are they calibrated to 75dB?
Sorry for the interrogation...

 

[cputoaster]

How are the 8020D in that configuration? Crossover point? distance to MLP? I'm considering a similar configuration but I hesitate about the 8320 being too "weak" Are you using GLM? are they calibrated to 75dB?
Sorry for the interrogation...

No problem. The 8020D are at around 1.5-2m, while the 8351b are more like 3m away. It is calibrated to around 70dB and I never had the feeling that there was anything missing or audible distortions. The crossover (as set in Dirac Live) is at around 70Hz. Not using GLM, just the straight speakers, digitally connected (SDP-55 -> DANTE -> AES3 -> 8351b), with Dirac doing all of the tuning and integration. I did not play around enough yet to say that this is optimal for me, but I do like how it sounds already, stereo and Atmos.