Genelec S360 Review (Studio Monitor)

[TurtlePaul]

The Genelec 8030s and Revel m105s have directivity error at crossover. The Genelecs are flat on axis (nearfield monitors) so Amir did a +2 dB EQ at the crossover frequency. The m105 are not flat on axis and have directivity error but Harmon designed the on axis to wiggle when the directivity waggled for PIR to sum flat.

These s360 have worse crossover error because the center-to-center spacing of a 10” and a compression horn has to be more than double a 5” and a dome tweeter in a wave guide. To offset this, the crossover frequency would have to be more than an octave lower than the 8030 or m105 and that would kill power handling or require even bigger a horn.

At least, that is my mental model of how this all works.

 

[fluid]

"Directivity Error" is something of a loaded term that leads some to regard this as an issue that a manufacturer left in, "an error" rather than the natural consequence of the decisions made in the construction. There are a few reasons why there can be discontinuities through the crossover region. There can be a directivity mismatch where the woofer and tweeter have very different directivities at the crossover point, like a dome tweeter on a flat baffle and an 8" woofer. At the crossover point the tweeter is wide and woofer narrow. Vertically separating the drivers will cause lobes to form in the response where the phases of the two drivers cause cancellation at certain angles. The crossover and filters applied to the drivers can change how they respond to each other and have an effect on the combined directivity. The distance between the drivers has quite a large effect on how they combine at the crossover frequency. As @voodooless pointed out before, it is quite possible to smooth the DI and early reflections response in the crossover, moving the angle of the lobes from pointing at the early reflection points to somewhere else. The lobes still exist in most cases because the crossover frequency is not low enough for the drivers to sum as one.

There is a good set of graphics made by augerpro at this post over on diyaudio where the CTC distance between the drivers has been changed to reflect a certain numbers of wavelengths at the crossover frequency. You can see how the shape of the directivity changes based on how the lobes form.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ations-with-ideal-drivers.380658/post-7063383

This is something Kimmo Saunisto has suggested for some time now, that increasing the CTC distance to be in the range 1.2 to 1.4 wavelengths at crossover smooths the DI and early reflection response in a beneficial way. There is only anecdotal evidence that it improves sound but when it comes to designing speakers he's usually right.

Genelec here have taken the approach of using high order filters with phase compensation to limit the range of crossover interaction and also the output of the drivers at their frequency extremes. As long as you don't put yourself right in the vertical null, what's left is a small power dip and DI bump, something which there is some old research on from Lipshitz and Vanderkooy.

https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=11454

 

[HiFidFan]

Great review @amirm

Given the discussion about the domestic use case and WAF of these speakers, I think I'd rather do a set of KH-310A and save about $3k/pair.

 

[dasdoing]

I think you guys are overdramatizing the "eyes". at 25 degrees and 2m distance your ears would have to be 93cm below or above the acustical center to be in the hole.

 

[changer]

I think you guys are overdramatizing the "eyes".

Maybe this is a condition where the price of the desired object is so high that eyeballing minute detail from afar must replace the pleasure of actual enjoyment. We could observe the same with the JBL 4367 thread.

Speaking of which, here are some comparisons between the two-way speakers, the 10" woofer-based S360A and the 4367, featuring a 15" woofer.

Genelec as well as S&R state an f6 of 36 Hz, and from Erin's measurement, this is about the same the 4367 reaches (see: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/jbl-4367-fr_linearity-png.198137/,) but is rolling of more gradually.


I find it interesting that the DI of the Genelec is very close to the considerably larger 4367. It is well decoupled from the listening room.


Both use asymmetrical waveguides, and technically the 4367's 1.4 inch D2 compression driver must begin to beam earlier. The normalized plots make the 4367 look quite irregular. Non-normalized plots benefit from not being centered on the 0 degree axis. However, the Genelec is obviously more even in general.


The crossover of the 4367 is much lower. Both have a gentle dip in PIR.


Bass distortion of the 15 inch woofer is lower than the 10" inch woofer's.

 

[Qbd]

I think you guys are overdramatizing the "eyes". at 25 degrees and 2m distance your ears would have to be 93cm below or above the acustical center to be in the hole.

That does put them just about where your ears will be when standing up though, which is a bit unfortunate.

 

[dasdoing]

this shows how the s360 horn, while looking simple, has a lot of high-tech going on. not easy to avoid the narrowing in the treble range without dividing the path in the throat (which creates other problems)

 

[Puddingbuks]

So if you had to choose between this S360, 8361a, neumann KH420 or ATC SCM50 for hifi stereo listening?

 

[changer]

No matter what the specs say, the first thing I would consider is how large the listening distance is at your place. How good is a 50 degree pattern fitting? I find the image rather small at my 2.7 meter listening distance, and when I sit across the room and one speaker is illuminating my PC station, I imagine these sort of midfield speakers "sound" better at a 4 m distance.
Anyway: a user chose the three-way KH420 https://gearspace.com/board/post-production-forum/1279107-test-new-speakers-ht-atmos-stage.html, for enhanced details (mid-range?) over the S360. I had asked other users (@Hörzone,) before I had asked @amirm lately, if they can describe what is missing in this two-way speakers. But it remains a mistery.

 

[BDE]

The advantage of a 3-way speaker in comparison to a 2-way are reduced IMD, (@amirm did you consider to add them to your reviews?, if I remember right we had already a discussion about it):

The nice summary is from Neumann "Glossar für Studiomonitore: Measurement descriptions, englisch"
https://de-de.neumann.com/file-finder?product=KH 120 A W&category=monitors&area=85

However for normal people/ non forum members a nice 2-way with an 8" + waveguide tweeter should be more than fine (e.g. 8050), also for me it would fit..

 

[Blockader]

The advantage of a 3-way speaker in comparison to a 2-way are reduced IMD, (@amirm did you consider to add them to your reviews?, if I remember right we had already a discussion about it):

The nice summary is from Neumann "Glossar für Studiomonitore: Measurement descriptions, englisch"
https://de-de.neumann.com/file-finder?product=KH 120 A W&category=monitors&area=85

However for normal people/ non forum members a nice 2-way with an 8" + waveguide tweeter should be more than fine (e.g. 8050), also for me it would fit..

IMD depends on the parameters of the drivers and crossover frequency too. JBL M2 has quite low IMD with just 2 drivers:

 

[Sancus]

IMD has been discussed frequently. Putting it in reviews is hard because there's no standard test, achieving consistent results that correlate with anything audible is hard, and there's very little research about what levels would.be audible independently of other forms of distortion.

The S&R IMD test graphs look pretty but they change the conditions from review to review and even if they didn't there's absolutely no way to relate the lines on those graphs to anything you might or might not be able to hear.

Also, generally speaking there is no evidence I know of that IMD is independently audible,.except for some vague tests on older 2-way coaxials only. That makes it pretty hard to credibly present it as a useful metric.

 

[jlo]

Hi all, here is another measurement of Genelec S360 I did last year at listening position (2.5m) with MMM method and before any EQ in a mid size room.
As usual, the MMM response is between LW and ER.

 

[abdo123]

Hi all, here is another measurement of Genelec S360 I did last year at listening position (2.5m) with MMM method and before any EQ in a mid size room.
As usual, the MMM response is between LW and ER.

View attachment 222950

I didn’t expect the floor bounce to be so pronounced. Makes you appreciate coaxials more.

 

[Zaireeka]

Hi all, here is another measurement of Genelec S360 I did last year at listening position (2.5m) with MMM method and before any EQ in a mid size room.
As usual, the MMM response is between LW and ER.

View attachment 222950

Did you measure after GLM (or another EQ solution)?

 

[jlo]

Did you measure after GLM (or another EQ solution)?

We installed two 5.1 systems with S360 and I used GLM for EQ. Now that Genelec launched GRADE, I've planned to compare GRADE before/after EQ with loudspeakers.audio measurements.

 

[changer]

Why did you not correct the enormous bass shelf then, which can be seen from the measurements?

Or am I misunderstanding the L+R sum?

 

[Zaireeka]

We installed two 5.1 systems with S360 and I used GLM for EQ. Now that Genelec launched GRADE, I've planned to compare GRADE before/after EQ with loudspeakers.audio measurements.

Didn't recognize you, I'm MLudovic on the HCFR forum, I did a several measurement of my 8350s with loudspeaker.audio
Very curious to see how the S360 measures with your system.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Why didn't they use this compression tweeter on the Ones too?
Wouldn't that make them perform much better?

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

Why didn't they use this compression tweeter on the Ones too?
Wouldn't that make them perform much better?

A compression drive is too large to fit in a coaxial. The voice coil is twice the size as the opening.