• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Genelec S360 Review (Studio Monitor)

Rate this speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 3 1.1%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 8 2.9%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 102 36.7%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 165 59.4%

  • Total voters
    278

Tangband

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 3, 2019
Messages
1,637
Likes
1,469
Location
Sweden
Assuming no sub, atleast 8351B has a chance to play flat down to 30hz in a suitable room. S360 is cut too high to begin with for my tastes. But it did sound quite sweet otherwise.
The 8351 seems good enough to be used without a sub . There are some studio people saying that using 7350 together with 8351 is of no big use - the bass in 8351 are already that good so its not a real uppgrade in sound quality. The 7350 goes down to 22 Hz which seems like an upgrade on paper, but in real life you always have to look at the spl, distortion and the articulation of the bass tones.

There is also always some degree of integration problems using only one sub, even if GLM makes it much easier .

This s360 is made to integrate with the w371A or the big subwoofer 7382.

The w371 has a big slotported subwoofer on the back .

16276FF1-8E9E-4D6A-8456-72644851FA37.jpeg
 
Last edited:

changer

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2020
Messages
306
Likes
239
I don't think the tweeter is inverted, I think it is the phase EQ that has been used that causes the initial dip down in the step.
It didn’t occur to me they where using FIR filters from their brochure, but yes, this makes sense.

The "eyes" seen in the vertical response are very narrow and in Genelec's own GLL data the DI bump at crossover is quite narrow, more so than in Amir's.

View attachment 222686
Also, how gradual the DI is rising over the frequency band, wow.
 

changer

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2020
Messages
306
Likes
239
Given that we do not know if the modifications Ilkka Rissanen did to the PHL 3411 changed the specifications of the driver profoundly, I however want to add something to the discussion over low end extension, based on my experiences with the PHL 3411:
If no room correction is applied, the listener is soaked in an immense bass output. This naturally isn't desirable for clarity and detail, but there is more than enough energy down to the f3 of 43 Hz that the listener is free to decide to leave some shelf standing for a warm atmosphere. I have the impression this theoretical number crunching is more of an exercise. It is clear for full range, a sub is needed. This speaker has the same extension as JBL 708p, and due the 6th order bass alignment looses some ground on the JBL 4367, which has a deeper f10 (31 Hz, the Genelec most likely around 35 Hz, as the JBL 708p).
 
Last edited:

TurtlePaul

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
299
Likes
435
Love Gennies, though I was hoping they'd finally deal with that 1.5-2k aberration by now. It seems endemic in their designs.
It is endemic to non-coaxial speakers. Look at the vertical off-axis of any two-way. How do you keep the on axis flat while keeping the total sound power from dipping where the “eyes” occur? You can’t.
 

changer

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2020
Messages
306
Likes
239
It is endemic to non-coaxial speakers. Look at the vertical off-axis of any two-way. How do you keep the on axis flat while keeping the total sound power from dipping where the “eyes” occur? You can’t.
Is it even correct to speak of a directivity error? Isn’t the crossover interference here mislabeled as such?
 

Xyrium

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 3, 2018
Messages
564
Likes
485
It is endemic to non-coaxial speakers. Look at the vertical off-axis of any two-way. How do you keep the on axis flat while keeping the total sound power from dipping where the “eyes” occur? You can’t.
I suppose this makes sense. It would be difficult to insert a DSP notch in there, wouldn't it?

BTW, the step response, where's the tweeter? I see the dropoff, then the woofer peak. Is the tweeter producing output at the reference line (0dB I suppose?)?
 
Last edited:

changer

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2020
Messages
306
Likes
239
It´s acoustic cancellation, this cannot be equalized. As fluid has pointed out, Genelec chose to treat this issue with high order filters for the crossover. Steep slopes minimize the interference zone and the spectrum losses above and below listening axis, that we know as the "eyes". If you have a look at the JBL 708p review, there you will see this zone is more extended with this speaker. Why? They probably used 4th order crossover filters. It seems Genelec created this speaker on the basis of FIR filters. IIRC, this can also help to alleviate the issues of higher order filters, ringing and phase shifts, but this is something the more literate people will know better than me.
 

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
6,437
Likes
6,484
Location
Brussels, Belgium
It is endemic to non-coaxial speakers. Look at the vertical off-axis of any two-way. How do you keep the on axis flat while keeping the total sound power from dipping where the “eyes” occur? You can’t.

The Revel M16 manages this somehow.
 

changer

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2020
Messages
306
Likes
239
Easy to explain imo: there is an "arm" below the floor "eye". https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/revel-m16-speaker-review.11884/
This can be created if for example an asymmetric crossover is used, and the slope of the woofer is of a lower order than that of the tweeter. The result is that the woofer has more energy in the crossover region and it is not cancelled downwards, because the tweeter is not strong enough there. The excess energy looks favorable in PIR. But it is pointed directly towards the floor, I do not think it is the best solution.
 
Last edited:

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
6,437
Likes
6,484
Location
Brussels, Belgium
Easy to explain imo: there is an "arm" below the flour "eye". https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/revel-m16-speaker-review.11884/
This can be created if for example an asymmetric crossover is used, and the slope of the woofer is of a lower order than that of the tweeter. The result is that the woofer has more energy in the crossover region and it is not cancelled downwards, because the tweeter is not strong enough there. The excess energy looks favorable in PIR. But it is pointed directly towards the flour, I do not think it is the best solution.
There are also other ways to avoid it, Perlisten uses ‘beam forming technology’ to almost completely control vertical radiation. Their midrange-tweeter combo is quite interesting.
 

changer

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2020
Messages
306
Likes
239
There are also other ways to avoid it, Perlisten uses ‘beam forming technology’ to almost completely control vertical radiation. Their midrange-tweeter combo is quite interesting.
Which is obviously not EQ, but forming the interference zone with additional sources, and hence proves the point raised for the case of the M16 that filling in the Power dip in 2-way designs is a matter of how to deal with cancellation pre-EQ.
 

voodooless

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
4,957
Likes
8,108
Location
Netherlands
Look at the directivity index and let me know ;)
There are quite a few 2-ways that don’t have a kink in directivity. The Revel surely is not an exception. Basically all ASR tested 8xx0 Genelecs for instance, and many more.
 
Last edited:

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
6,437
Likes
6,484
Location
Brussels, Belgium
Which is obviously not EQ, but forming the interference zone with additional sources, and hence proves the point raised for the case of the M16 that filling in the Power dip in 2-way designs is a matter of how to deal with cancellation pre-EQ.
Yeah it’s obvious that EQ won’t change the directivity index, the original comment i replied to said that ALL 2-way speakers with non coincidental drivers have that kink, but I remember few designs that don’t, that’s all.
 

changer

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2020
Messages
306
Likes
239
Only that strictly speaking, the Perlisten is NOT a two-way speaker ;)
 

Sancus

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
2,397
Likes
6,079
Location
Canada
There are quite a few 2-ways that don’t have a kink in directivity. The Revel surely is not an exception. Basically all ASR tested 8xx0 Genelecs for instance, and many more.

I think this is just a mathematical artifact of the spinorama's particular definition of DI, though. IIRC, Sound Power DI is listening window - sound power. The LW uses a very restricted slice of vertical off-axis. So speakers that push the nulls out to steeper angles will hide their directivity problems from this graph. That is certainly still a material improvement but it's definitely not the same thing as eliminating vertical directivity problems the way a coaxial does, even if the graph doesn't show it.
 

changer

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2020
Messages
306
Likes
239
Actually, same as M16: excess energy below the downward cancellation zone (amir flipped the graph accidentally, top is bottom). Makes up for a better looking PIR, but it is misleading because floor bounce will be pronounced.

408341B5-5EFF-4955-8E29-CE647B6896ED.png

DI dip is easier to come by with smaller woofers because they start to beam later, and with this sort of crossover like M16 and 8030c, it makes for a better looking DI and PIR. But then there are other issues like increased early reflections.
 
Last edited:

mkt

Active Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2020
Messages
203
Likes
293
A Genelec employee talking about the S360:
"I wouldn't say it's the kind of box you would want to have 3 feet from your head although from a design standpoint that perfectly ok, but there are probably other choices in our product line that would probably behave you know more fluidly" More post-production with a large console and LCR 6m away.
 
Top Bottom