• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Genelec S360 Review (Studio Monitor)

Rate this speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 5 1.6%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 9 2.9%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 111 35.9%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 184 59.5%

  • Total voters
    309

DanielT

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
4,751
Likes
4,633
Location
Sweden - Слава Україні
The formulation is there.
Low bass is affected as you see every 2 degrees Celsius once related to those 5 cents.
You may notice it if you have been granted with that 5 cents "detection capability", or not and you will need more range, say 7 cents, or 10...but it is there.
As I said, I noticed my system having more "body" in winter than in summer, where temperatures in a non conditioned huge room (720 m3, 9m hight, 80m2 surface) varies 12-32 Celsius.
I trade problems for audibility in my question: Audible differences for home Hifi?
If you hear differences and they are due to the mentioned, you do.

I, like everyone else, experience things differently depending variations in temperature.Individual when that happens, the difference in experience, of course.For example, really hot days, with high humidity. Ugh, it can be tough. But that in itself has nothing to do with HiFi.:)
 
Last edited:

Digby

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
1,632
Likes
1,556
or example, really hot days, with high humidity. Ugh, it can be tough.
What is a really hot day in Sweden, 22c? Sorry, couldn't help myself ;).

Did you get the heatwave up there? I am not built for 30c temps, let alone 40c, that is for sure.
 

DanielT

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
4,751
Likes
4,633
Location
Sweden - Слава Україні
What is a really hot day in Sweden, 22c? Sorry, couldn't help myself ;).

Did you get the heatwave up there? I am not built for 30c temps, let alone 40c, that is for sure.
You know this with global warming(we can take that discussion in another thread) , we almost set a record two weeks ago in Sveeige. It was 36,7c in the city I was in at the time.

And that heat affects. Maybe not on HiFi but I'm sure that some activities are affected then. As Ella Fitzgerald complains about::)


Sorry OT, I just couldn't resist.:)
 

F1308

Major Contributor
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
1,053
Likes
905
True.
(In the Darko podcast, at 46 minutes the constructor of Buchardt a700 says that a really small room 3*3 meters never gonna be able to play any bass at low frequencies . He would never recommend an a700 to a customer who dont have a much bigger room. )

To be on topic again : So , the logic of this will be - the s360 dont really need subwoofers in a room smaller than about 5*4 meters .
That is the whole point of all my reasoning.
5 m length and 21 Celsius provides 34.38 Hz bottom. Place the speakers 50 cm from the wall and we have 4.5 left providing 38.2 Hz.
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,747
Likes
16,186
Here is the answer I got from a very kind loudspeaker maker...

The smaller the room, the less help they will give to the speakers, and therefore it becomes almost impossible for speakers to produce the very low frequencies, inside these small rooms. A 17Hz soundwave is a bit more than 20 meters long, and when you try to play that in a room that is 3 meters long, the output is just going to be extremely low. As a general rule of thump, you need a room with half the length of the soundwave you want to produce, to get a decent output, at this frequency. That does not mean that you won't get any 20hz output in a 3x3m room, it will just be very low, and you really won't get much out of the speakers' ability to produce sound in this frequency range.
That answer is wrong though, it is actually the opposite, the smaller the room the higher the frequency is below that the pressure chamber effect happens, meaning you don't have any discrete modes but increased room gain, see more on the lower part of http://www.sengpielaudio.com/StandingWaves.htm
This is also the reason you can have more easily deep bass in small acoustic volumes like cars or headphones.
 
Last edited:

F1308

Major Contributor
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
1,053
Likes
905
That answer is wrong though, it is actually the opposite, the smaller the room the higher the frequency is below that the pressure chamber effect happens, meaning you don't have any modes but increased room gain, see more on the lower part of http://www.sengpielaudio.com/StandingWaves.htm
This is also the reason you can have more easily deep bass in small acoustic volumes like cars or headphones.
Then we have a loudspeaker maker that makes loudspeakers without understanding the science behind the acoustics of any room they are to be placed in and go saying wrong things to their potential customers
like don't buy this 20000$ from me if your room is 3x3 and place there a title Genelec instead ?

Or is it simply the smaller rooms must be pressured tight, and most are not ?
 
Last edited:

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,747
Likes
16,186
Then we have a loudspeaker maker that makes loudspeakers without understanding the science behind the acoustics of any room they are to be placed in and go saying wrong things to their potential customers
like don't buy this 20000$ from me if your room is 3x3 and place there a title Genelec instead ?
I strongly doubt a loudspeaker manufacturer doesn't know such basics, would rather guess you misunderstood it something, could you please quote his exact text?

Also there are quite few reasons why a large (and expensive) loudspeaker doesn't make sense in a tiny room, but that you cannot have deep bass in it is not one as its wrong.
 

F1308

Major Contributor
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
1,053
Likes
905
I strongly doubt a loudspeaker manufacturer doesn't know such basics, would rather guess you misunderstood it something, could you please quote his exact text?

Also there are quite few reasons why a large (and expensive) loudspeaker doesn't make sense in a tiny room, but that you cannot have deep bass in it is not one as its wrong.
Here is the answer I got from a very kind loudspeaker maker...

The smaller the room, the less help they will give to the speakers, and therefore it becomes almost impossible for speakers to produce the very low frequencies, inside these small rooms. A 17Hz soundwave is a bit more than 20 meters long, and when you try to play that in a room that is 3 meters long, the output is just going to be extremely low. As a general rule of thump, you need a room with half the length of the soundwave you want to produce, to get a decent output, at this frequency. That does not mean that you won't get any 20hz output in a 3x3m room, it will just be very low, and you really won't get much out of the speakers' ability to produce sound in this frequency range. And in a small room, you gain almost nothing by getting the A700 over the A500, the extra 7hz of depth you get from the A700, will most likely not be heard in that room.
So it is all related to the room size and room acoustics, not the distance to the speakers, as you refer to with the near field setup. Headphones are also completely different, as they are not limited by the room, and you can get deep bass here.
Your 5000 euro subwoofer offering 13-80 Hz can bring a lot extra in a 3x3 room, but it will be mostly from the 35-40Hz range and up. There will still be output, it will just fall off drastically, when you get below this range, in small rooms.
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,747
Likes
16,186
Here is the answer I got from a very kind loudspeaker maker...

The smaller the room, the less help they will give to the speakers, and therefore it becomes almost impossible for speakers to produce the very low frequencies, inside these small rooms. A 17Hz soundwave is a bit more than 20 meters long, and when you try to play that in a room that is 3 meters long, the output is just going to be extremely low. As a general rule of thump, you need a room with half the length of the soundwave you want to produce, to get a decent output, at this frequency. That does not mean that you won't get any 20hz output in a 3x3m room, it will just be very low, and you really won't get much out of the speakers' ability to produce sound in this frequency range. And in a small room, you gain almost nothing by getting the A700 over the A500, the extra 7hz of depth you get from the A700, will most likely not be heard in that room.
So it is all related to the room size and room acoustics, not the distance to the speakers, as you refer to with the near field setup. Headphones are also completely different, as they are not limited by the room, and you can get deep bass here.
Your 5000 euro subwoofer offering 13-80 Hz can bring a lot extra in a 3x3 room, but it will be mostly from the 35-40Hz range and up. There will still be output, it will just fall off drastically, when you get below this range, in small rooms.
Thank you, above text is plainly wrong, I guess you don't want to name the brand?

By the way here the room gain effect is very well explained and demonstrated:

 

kipman725

Active Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2020
Messages
255
Likes
224
What if the 'stuff' you want to buy is on-axis and off-axis frequency response linearity and low distortion?

While Genelec doesn't always use exotic materials and construction methods, they certainly do spend a lot of time testing to get better results and do offer products which spend the money where it delivers results.

Do you have a spin for your PA designs? Distortion measurements? I bet you don't even bother.

I do have this data; but I also think this disccusion has reached its natural conclusion.
 

Tangband

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 3, 2019
Messages
2,994
Likes
2,789
Location
Sweden
Thank you, above text is plainly wrong, I guess you don't want to name the brand?

By the way here the room gain effect is very well explained and demonstrated:

Its not wrong.
 
Last edited:

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
7,425
Likes
7,940
Location
Brussels, Belgium
That answer is wrong though, it is actually the opposite, the smaller the room the higher the frequency is below that the pressure chamber effect happens, meaning you don't have any modes but increased room gain, see more on the lower part of http://www.sengpielaudio.com/StandingWaves.htm
This is also the reason you can have more easily deep bass in small acoustic volumes like cars or headphones.

I think many people hear bass in larger rooms (modes are below 20Hz) and mistakenly describe better bass response as ‘ability to produce bass’ when in reality it’s just better bass response.
 

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
7,425
Likes
7,940
Location
Brussels, Belgium
Thank you, above text is plainly wrong, I guess you don't want to name the brand?

By the way here the room gain effect is very well explained and demonstrated:


The text is not plainly wrong, i think you just misinterpreted it slightly.

if you consider the anechoic output + room gain of a speaker ‘low’ and +20 to +30dB room mode boost as ‘high’ then what was mentioned kind of makes sense.

You need a lot of displacement if you want to produce the lowest octave in a small room. Compared to the octave above it where the modes preside.
 

fluid

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 19, 2021
Messages
691
Likes
1,196
Here is the answer I got from a very kind loudspeaker maker...
Some truth particularly when applied to displacement challenged speakers but not universally so, the below link is more thorough

http://www.cartchunk.org/audiotopics/SmallEnclBass.pdf

"The implications of this are important: below some frequency determined by the relationship between the wavelength at that frequency and the maximum dimensions of the room, the bass frequency performance of the speaker and room, considered as a system, is dependent only on the ability of the cone to compress the air, and is independent of frequency! The limit to producing sound level is simply determined by the ratio of the displacement volume of the woofer and the volume of the room."
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,747
Likes
16,186
Its not wrong , and I guess its from the Buchardt constructor
It is wrong and I am shocked that it comes from him, here again:

A 17Hz soundwave is a bit more than 20 meters long, and when you try to play that in a room that is 3 meters long, the output is just going to be extremely low.
No, it will be actually very high if the loudspeaker goes so deep, see the room gain explanation link I posted above:

index.php


As a general rule of thump, you need a room with half the length of the soundwave you want to produce, to get a decent output, at this frequency. That does not mean that you won't get any 20hz output in a 3x3m room, it will just be very low, and you really won't get much out of the speakers' ability to produce sound in this frequency range.
Again wrong as above.

I think many people hear bass in larger rooms (modes are below 20Hz) and mistakenly describe better bass response as ‘ability to produce bass’ when in reality it’s just better bass response.
Possibly, we are not talking about perception though here, but measured response in rooms.

The text is not plainly wrong, i think you just misinterpreted it slightly.

if you consider the anechoic output + room gain of a speaker ‘low’ and +20 to +30dB room mode boost as ‘high’ then what was mentioned kind of makes sense.

You need a lot of displacement if you want to produce the lowest octave in a small room. Compared to the octave above it where the modes preside.
The room gain is actually even higher than at the above modal region (if you smooth accordingly to our perception), the problem is that most loudspeakers drop much higher below.

His claim is that the smaller the room the more difficult it is to reproduce low bass which is plainly wrong, if his claim would be correct headphones wouldn't work, which can be also shown by his own contradiction:

Headphones are also completely different, as they are not limited by the room, and you can get deep bass here.
 

Absolute

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Messages
1,084
Likes
2,125
The text is not plainly wrong, i think you just misinterpreted it slightly.

if you consider the anechoic output + room gain of a speaker ‘low’ and +20 to +30dB room mode boost as ‘high’ then what was mentioned kind of makes sense.

You need a lot of displacement if you want to produce the lowest octave in a small room. Compared to the octave above it where the modes preside.
That's too nice of an interpretation in my opinion.
 

changer

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 4, 2020
Messages
557
Likes
601
I have the impression you are not talking about the same thing. Room gain and modes. However, this is more of a room acoustics topic.

Direct comparison of @Maiky76's EQs on both JBL 708p and Genelec S360:

To my eyes it appears that the Genelec is better engineered from the start, hence the lower gains, despite the on-axis response is violating a flat criteria (bass boost, regression).

I found this to be interesting, that Ilkka Rissanen tuned the speaker's tonality despite it being a "neutral" monitor. The waveguide demands this I suppose.
 

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
7,425
Likes
7,940
Location
Brussels, Belgium
It is wrong and I am shocked that it comes from him, here again:


No, it will be actually very high if the loudspeaker goes so deep, see the room gain explanation link I posted above:

index.php



Again wrong as above.


Possibly, we are not talking about perception though here, but measured response in rooms.


The room gain is actually even higher than at the above modal region (if you smooth accordingly to our perception), the problem is
It is wrong and I am shocked that it comes from him, here again:


No, it will be actually very high if the loudspeaker goes so deep, see the room gain explanation link I posted above:

index.php



Again wrong as above.


Possibly, we are not talking about perception though here, but measured response in rooms.


The room gain is actually even higher than at the above modal region (if you smooth accordingly to our perception), the problem is that most loudspeakers drop much higher below.

His claim is that the smaller the room the more difficult it is to reproduce low bass which is plainly wrong, if his claim would be correct headphones wouldn't work, which can be also shown by his own contradiction:

Yeah but there are no speakers or subwoofers for that matter that would go flat to 1Hz, heck even 10Hz. And that’s an important distinction i feel because at the end of the day we’re talking about actual speakers and subwoofers not hypothetical scenarios that don’t really exist.

The much more reasonable BW 12dB/oct @35Hz graph clearly shows a increase in response in the modal region, which is more representative of actual reality.

1659696567097.png
 

F1308

Major Contributor
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
1,053
Likes
905
Yeah but there are no speakers or subwoofers for that matter that would go flat to 1Hz, heck even 10Hz. And that’s an important distinction i feel because at the end of the day we’re talking about actual speakers and subwoofers not hypothetical scenarios that don’t really exist.

The much more reasonable BW 12dB/oct @35Hz graph clearly shows a increase in response in the modal region, which is more representative of actual reality.

View attachment 222536
So, if I place my subwoofer offering 13-80 Hz +/-3dB in a non sealed 3x3 m room I can get....what, please?
 
Top Bottom