Genelec Owners Lounge and Discussion

[Kain]

Tell me why you ask and I can answer better but these are 2x 7380a crossed at 85hz iirc. Distance is 1.5m.

I can tell you in general, on bass heavy tracks, the subs are the limiting factor. I don't have a z-weighted meter either.

Just trying to figure things out for my future/dream nearfield theater/media room as I am likely to be using the same speakers for LCR (8361A) and subwoofers (4 x 7380A).

Subwoofers are the limiting factor even with 2 x 7380A on bass heavy tracks? What if you had 4 x 7380A? Would you say that would overcome the limitations or would you prefer the 7382A if you could have it?

 

[Mort]

Gotcha! A few of us here are doing nearfield multichannel and it's amazing, really. I listen to a lot of current Eletcro-pop/EDM and can't get enough of it.

I personally don't need to hit higher than I'm doing at my 5foot distance. I'll listen at 95db from time to time for 10 minutes or so, most is at 75-85db. So 101db (C weight) on a bass heavy track is more than enough. Two subs is usually less than 6db theoretical, three and four would barely add more power although you may get better frequency response with so many subs.

Personally, I barely notice the difference between one or two 7380a, it moved the max needle on bass heavy subs a bit but I honestly wouldn't buy the second again if I could do it over. I wouldn't get the 8361a either, the 8351a is more than adequate.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I guess with 8380 subs would hardly add anything

 

[Mort]

I guess with 8380 subs would hardly add anything

8381a would be the upgrade if it works as close as 1.5M. (Edit, it does according to a retailer site. 1M minimum)

 

[Mort]

Next time I win the lottery...

 

[Pearljam5000]

Next time I win the lottery...


View attachment 551066

Problem is never leaving the house again lol

 

[Mort]

Problem is never leaving the house again lol

I can verify that I stayed indoors more since I bought the 8361a.

 

[Kain]

A few of us here are doing nearfield multichannel and it's amazing, really. I listen to a lot of current Eletcro-pop/EDM and can't get enough of it.

Would you say nearfield multichannel setups are "better" or more immersive than mid or farfield setups? If yes, what makes you say that?

 

[Mort]

Would you say nearfield multichannel setups are "better" or more immersive than mid or farfield setups? If yes, what makes you say that?

I love that question. Yes and no. Nearfield you get much more physical sensation. Anything below 90 has a 'feel' somewhere in my body or arm chair as it resonates. That can't easily be done farther away. I think it's important.

There is a somewhat fixed position in which I must keep my head which is only slightly inconvenient. But to some it's a deal breaker.

Nearfield monitors like these are so pinpoint that the nearfield stereo soundstage is more 3d also. It sounds like you are inside the studio or concert hall. (Not taking about Atmos - I mean even just 2 channel)

For Far Field like 3-4M, I dislike narrow coaxial monitors like genelec and prefer something with a very wide directivity. My main TV has a passive wide directivity speaker system and it has a different sound - more lush and reverberant, with a bigger soundstage but the loss of some 3d spatial qualities. And there is no kick felt from the bass.

I had 8351b/7370a system in my guest suite intended as a room filler and it sounded very good but not so much better and ultimately I downgraded.

Basically I like genelec a) nearfield used b) mounted monitors c) SAM/GLM for quality and ease of use.

 

[Kain]

Thanks.

By the way, The Ones have narrow dispersion? I was under the assumption that they had wider dispersion. Is that wrong/incorrect? Do The Ones "disappear" when listening to them so that all you hear is the soundstage and imaging? Or does it sound like the sound is "coming from the speakers"?

 

[Mort]

Thanks.

By the way, The Ones have narrow dispersion? I was under the assumption that they had wider dispersion. Is that wrong/incorrect? Do The Ones "disappear" when listening to them so that all you hear is the soundstage and imaging? Or does it sound like the sound is "coming from the speakers"?

Speaker disappearing is usually a timing thing that the DSP would correct. Genelec most certainly disappear although wide directivity speakers can equally disappear when DSP gets the timing right.

Genelec I would say are medium, medium-narrow in directivity. Not as narrow as a horn. Medium-narrow (with DSP e.g. GLM) results in an ultra-clear, precise soundstage where the center is very distinct and the speakers completely dissapear. Wider (with DSP) creates a more diffuse, bigger soundstage that has a lush reverberant impression and the speakers completely disspear.

 

[AudioScienceGuineaPig]

hello,

How s it translating to actual listening , bass feel tight integrated, or still some looseness vss the mains?

Got a pre post correction overlay?

Curious how much the Audiolense filter pulled that low-end decay down

70Hz rather than the more typical 80Hz , is that driven by the 8351b's directivity, or more the Rythmik's in room response?

I'm enjoying the integration so far, especially after some additional knob turning that I just completed today.

I decided to try things a bit differently this time around compared to the first attempt (attempt 1 was the previously posted graphs/charts)

This time around I decided to not apply any GLM AutoCal corrections to the 8351b's and instead just apply volume Min/Max settings and remove the BassMgmt X-Over settings. I then saved that config to the speakers directly. I am letting Audiolense handle all corrections exclusively this time.

I've got some of the overlay's you are asking about that I can post based on the new configuration. I should be able to post those details sometime tomorrow

 

[AudioScienceGuineaPig]

I don't know Audiolense XO well. That looks pretty good overall. DiracART would we a worthy upgrade to tame those bass resonances more. Or a SAM subwoofer and GLM will get you very close.

What features does DiracArt include that might better tame bass resonances? With enough time and motivation, Audiolense is very capable in the right hands (but not necessarily in my hands..lol)

 

[Fongus]

Speaker disappearing is usually a timing thing that the DSP would correct. Genelec most certainly disappear although wide directivity speakers can equally disappear when DSP gets the timing right.

Genelec I would say are medium, medium-narrow in directivity. Not as narrow as a horn. Medium-narrow (with DSP e.g. GLM) results in an ultra-clear, precise soundstage where the center is very distinct and the speakers completely dissapear. Wider (with DSP) creates a more diffuse, bigger soundstage that has a lush reverberant impression and the speakers completely disspear.

As I'm very sensitive to stereo imaging and phantom center imbalances when I move my head, I was considering getting a pair of 8331A monitors as soon as the local distributor receives their shipment of stock. I was hoping "The Ones" would naturally have a wider listening sweet spot in near field due to their coaxial driver design.

 

[patoulol]

As I'm very sensitive to stereo imaging and phantom center imbalances when I move my head, I was considering getting a pair of 8331A monitors as soon as the local distributor receives their shipment of stock. I was hoping "The Ones" would naturally have a wider listening sweet spot in near field due to their coaxial driver design.

The point source coaxial design on The Ones gives you a rock solid phantom center and a super wide sweet spot, so you can move your head around all day without the stereo image collapsing

 

[AudioScienceGuineaPig]

hello,

How s it translating to actual listening , bass feel tight integrated, or still some looseness vss the mains?

Got a pre post correction overlay?

Curious how much the Audiolense filter pulled that low-end decay down

70Hz rather than the more typical 80Hz , is that driven by the 8351b's directivity, or more the Rythmik's in room response?

Hello again,

The below chart is the best I can do to show the differences between the various configurations I used.

Details:

Measurement distance (MLP) = 1.75m to front plane of speakers

Orange line = 8351b's both channels driven WITHOUT GLM Autocal corrections applied
Green line = 8351b's both channels driven WITH GLM Autocal corrections applied
Pink line = 8351b's both channels driven, no SUB, Audiolense corrections applied, 78hz XO configured within Audiolense
Blue line = 8351b's both channels driven, WITH 1 Rythmik E15HP2 SE SUB, Audiolense corrections applied, 78hz XO configured within Audiolense
Audiolense XO width = 2.5 octaves (slightly slower rolloff at both ends than the standard 2.0 octave default setting)

Note*** The GLM correction plot (Green line) was done a few weeks back at a slightly lower sweep volume but it should be sufficient to provide a general idea for comparison purposes here.

To address your question about why the 70hz XOver was chosen during the first set of measurements (which was changed to 78hz this time around shown here). These values were selected after reviewing the Audiolense sweep data of each channel. Initially, during the first set of measurements previously posted, 70hz was a point where both Left/Right and the SUB channels converged nicely with each other on the graph in my room. I wanted to allow the 8351b's to reach as far down as possible before the SUB took over so 70hz fit the best at that time. As a reminder, during the first set of measurements posted, I was using a combination of GLM Autocal & Audiolense corrections together and in that configuration 70hz was the best option.

The new configuration I am using (Blue & Purple lines below) do not use any GLM Autocal corrections. Those sweeps are the 8351b's with Audiolense doing all the work.

I tweaked the Audiolense Target Curve this time around to match as close as possible to the GLM Autocal corrections that were applied back when no SUB was being used to try and maintain the sound character of the speakers.

I am happy with how things turned out in terms of the final sound of the system with the Rythmik SUB in place

 

[Mort]

Audiolense appears to be giving you a high shelf, or brighter. GLM won't correct anything above 300hz.

 

[AudioScienceGuineaPig]

Audiolense appears to be giving you a high shelf, or brighter. GLM won't correct anything above 300hz.

If I have the time and find it necessary, I might go back and do some additional tweaks of the Audiolense target curve.

You can see here that I have purposely set the target curve to Flat from about 150hz all the way out to 4500kHz (between the two Yellow dots). You can also see here that I added a slight bump at 20hz of 2db above Flat to provide a bit more punch down low from 20-150hz. I listen to a lot of Trance music so this is my own preference.

The good news is that I can make the curve look anyway I want. The bad news is, I can make the curve look anyway I want.

One of the many benefits of having a truthful speaker and powerful correction software as a starting point is that you can make the speakers sound like almost any other speaker. On the other hand, if you start off with a colored speaker to begin with, there is no amount of tweaking in the world that you can do to make them sound truthful.

To the point that GLM won't correct anything above 300hz. That is one of several shortcomings of GLM IMO. Sometimes correction is beneficial above 300hz. Just look at the original graph I posted to see why.

 

[kyuu]

You can also see here that I added a slight bump at 20hz of 2db above Flat to provide a bit more punch down low from 20-150hz. I listen to a lot of Trance music so this is my own preference.

In most cases people prefer a bump of 3-6dB from ~120Hz on down.

I'm not sure why you have the rapid fall-off after 5kHz.

One of the many benefits of having a truthful speaker and powerful correction software as a starting point is that you can make the speakers sound like almost any other speaker.

Nah, there's more to how a speaker sounds than its on-axis response, and that's all you can affect with EQ.

To the point that GLM won't correct anything above 300hz. That is one of several shortcomings of GLM IMO. Sometimes correction is beneficial above 300hz. Just look at the original graph I posted to see why.

In most cases, you should not do room correction above Schroeder, and few rooms have Schroeder over 300Hz. After that, you need to correct based on anechoic measurements, not the in-room response. There's no Genelec I'm aware of that needs correction of its anechoic response.

 

[AudioScienceGuineaPig]

I'm not sure why you have the rapid fall-off after 5kHz.

Having the top end of the curve roll off slowly to land at about -10db down at 20kHz seems pretty common from what I've read in various articles found around the web. Everytime I've configured the correction this way its worked well for me, especially during long term listening sessions.

I added the addition correction "touch" at around 40kHz to address a wild jump on the top end seen in the posted graph from a few pages back (added below for reference (Blue Line)) where, when both channels are driven, at around 9kHz till about 10kHz, the curve would fall into a hole then change direction going back towards the sky after 10kHz. No idea why that kept happening under those specific conditions which does not happen when only one speaker was driven at a time (Green/Red Lines).

The only way to address that was to place a correction "touch" way up near the advertised limit of the 8351b's which according to the Genelec website is -6db @ 43kHz. Stopping all corrections at say...250hz (which I tried during a few sessions) would result in the same rise when both channels were driven at the same point.

To note, that same behavior occurs even with just GLM corrections in place when measured using REW. It's unlikely to be related to the Microphone being used which is an Earthworks M30 in my case and oddly enough, the correction "touch" at 40kHz did not result in a boost being applied in the correction software (Prevent Treble Boost Setting). it just got rid of the strange behavior for whatever reason.