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Genelec in large room: waste of money?

AudioJester

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You say dual subs would depend on SPL. In my case, listening volumes will seldom be very loud. But one comment I read in another thread does make me wonder about dual subs. I’ve always heard that low bass is not directional. But, if I’m going to cross these over relatively high, might I be in the territory of being able to hear where the bass is coming from and thus screw up my stereo imaging?

Definitely, around 80Hz is where bass becomes locatable.
This has always been the achiles heal of the otherwise amazing LS50. You need subs and need to cross pretty high.
Kef R3 or LS50 wireless II may be better starting points, particularly if you are "used" to bass
 

caught gesture

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I vote for measurements in listening position with any available pair of speakers to start with.
Exactly! I have listened to music for more than a decade with the speakers he has. Paired with subs and eq and used in two diverse rooms, one dedicated and fully treated, I’d say there would be no reason not to at least start with them for measurement purposes.
 
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Neale

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You mean the chart here? https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors

Ignore the room volumes, just go to the column for 5m listening distance and it shows very roughly the short and long term SPL you will achieve (presumably with one speaker). All bar two will do over 90dB long term average, why don't you think they would be suitable?

1673687309513.png

and ... just to state the obvious ... those SPLs at 5m are really really loud for an in-home living room! There's no conversation possible at those levels
 

dshreter

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You say dual subs would depend on SPL. In my case, listening volumes will seldom be very loud. But one comment I read in another thread does make me wonder about dual subs. I’ve always heard that low bass is not directional. But, if I’m going to cross these over relatively high, might I be in the territory of being able to hear where the bass is coming from and thus screw up my stereo imaging?
80Hz is the THX guideline, but you can cross higher than that without localization. Two will get you more even response in the room so it’s not a bad thing at all.
 
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mkush

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80Hz is the THX guideline, but you can cross higher than that without localization. Two will get you more even response in the room so it’s not a bad thing at all.
I really hate to buy another KC62… those things are a bit expensive. I think I’ll start with the one and go from there. Still, if I did do two, I had a placement question…

Between the speakers is a long table. Well, not that long, just 2m. The idea was to just put the one sub under the table, right in the middle. If, instead of that, I did two subs, presumably right next to the main speakers, I’m wondering what effect their side-facing drivers would have on each other. In other words, the two inward-facing drivers would be shooting straight at each other, separated by a fairly short distance. Issue?

Speaking of issues, I know the separation of the speakers compared to my listening distance is too small. There’s really nothing I can do. I should post a drawing of the room but suffice to say, it’s really complicated and allows no placement options.

Again, I’m coming to the place that I wonder if this is all a fool’s errand, trying to get even halfway decent sound in this room.
 

Flaesh

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Again, I’m coming to the place that I wonder if this is all a fool’s errand, trying to get even halfway decent sound in this room.
Again, I vote for measurements in listening position with any available pair of speakers to start with.
And listening with any available pair of speakers. What exactly bad\not bad\decent do you hear?..
 
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HarmonicTHD

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I really hate to buy another KC62… those things are a bit expensive. I think I’ll start with the one and go from there. Still, if I did do two, I had a placement question…

Between the speakers is a long table. Well, not that long, just 2m. The idea was to just put the one sub under the table, right in the middle. If, instead of that, I did two subs, presumably right next to the main speakers, I’m wondering what effect their side-facing drivers would have on each other. In other words, the two inward-facing drivers would be shooting straight at each other, separated by a fairly short distance. Issue?

Speaking of issues, I know the separation of the speakers compared to my listening distance is too small. There’s really nothing I can do. I should post a drawing of the room but suffice to say, it’s really complicated and allows no placement options.

Again, I’m coming to the place that I wonder if this is all a fool’s errand, trying to get even halfway decent sound in this room.
The positioning question can not be answered in general. One needs to look at your room size and listening position. Run either a simulation or better do some measurements (eg REW and UMIK1).

Very simply speaking. Often main speakers are placed where they minimize SIBIR for smooth upper frequency response and good soundstage, however it can be that lower frequencies are experience dips and peaks (room modes) at that position. In these cases it would not be a good idea to place the subs next to the main speakers.

My two subs (KEF KF92s) are not placed at the main speakers for this exact reason. But again only REW measurements can determine the best overall compromise and a Bass management system (eg MSO, Dirac, Audyssey only with some tweaks) to properly integrate subs and mains.
 
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dshreter

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How much higher?
It depends. Here’s a good quote from AVSForum. 80Hz basically nobody can localize. There isn’t a definite point above though.


it's not the source of low frequencies themselves that we are locating from a subwoofer in a room, but the higher frequency content on the crossover slope, the harmonics, the mechanical or enclosure noises your subwoofer may be making, and/or sympathetic vibrations that accompany the waves that tip us off to their apparent source.
 
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mkush

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I ended up ordering a pair of Genelec 8050B and no sub. My hope is that the larger speakers and their amps will handle the large room well. And hopefully the bass they produce will be sufficient for me. They’ll be connected to a Parasound Halo P6. For now, there is no room correction. Once I get things going and hopefully get it sounding pretty good, maybe I’ll do some room measurements and then revisit the question of room correction if the measurements look bad.

Thanks to all of you for giving your time to attempt to help me with my goofy room. I’m impressed by this site and the people on it.
 
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mkush

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I ended up ordering a pair of Genelec 8050B and no sub. My hope is that the larger speakers and their amps will handle the large room well. And hopefully the bass they produce will be sufficient for me. They’ll be connected to a Parasound Halo P6. For now, there is no room correction. Once I get things going and hopefully get it sounding pretty good, maybe I’ll do some room measurements and then revisit the question of room correction if the measurements look bad.

Thanks to all of you for giving your time to attempt to help me with my goofy room. I’m impressed by this site and the people on it.
Well, I can’t leave well enough alone. I decided to instead start out with the smaller 8040B and an SVS SB-2000 Pro sub. Bass should be much better than with the 8050B and no sub and total $ came in cheaper. The 8040B should still have enough power for my listening distance.

I’m now wondering the best way to cross over between the Genelecs and the SVS. The Parasound will allow me to easily high-pass filter the Genelecs and low-pass filter the SVS. Based on discussions I saw regarding KEF LS50 and KC62, my understanding is that you don’t want those crossover frequencies to be the same since that will result in a bump at that frequency. So I’d like to get a few opinions on where the LPF should be vs the HPF.

Of course I know that the real answer is to run measurements to see. So I’m just really looking for a starting point, until my measurement mic, which I will go ahead and order, comes in.
 

FeddyLost

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So I’d like to get a few opinions on where the LPF should be vs the HPF.
I'd better check it with measurements. Maybe you'll have some mode around target crossover frequency (i.e. 80) and will end with 70 and 90 Hz ...
It's barely predictable without some understanding what is going on in your room at expected LP.
 
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mkush

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I'd better check it with measurements. Maybe you'll have some mode around target crossover frequency (i.e. 80) and will end with 70 and 90 Hz ...
It's barely predictable without some understanding what is going on in your room at expected LP.
I made one more change to the system (this is all before installing it!) and this will help. Instead of the Parasound unit, I decided to get a MiniDSP SHD. So now I can do what everyone here says… measure and correct!

So the final system I hope to ACTUALLY plug up this weekend is:

MiniDSP SHD
Genelec 8040B (pair)
SVS SB-2000 Pro (single, for now)

Hopefully I can figure out the Dirac stuff, sub setup, etc. I’m capable of it but never have enough time to dig into things as much as I’d like.
 

dshreter

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I made one more change to the system (this is all before installing it!) and this will help. Instead of the Parasound unit, I decided to get a MiniDSP SHD. So now I can do what everyone here says… measure and correct!

So the final system I hope to ACTUALLY plug up this weekend is:

MiniDSP SHD
Genelec 8040B (pair)
SVS SB-2000 Pro (single, for now)

Hopefully I can figure out the Dirac stuff, sub setup, etc. I’m capable of it but never have enough time to dig into things as much as I’d like.
That should work great. I assume you also got the microphone?
 
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mkush

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That should work great. I assume you also got the microphone?
Yes, the UMIK-1. The dealer (Deer Creek in Colorado) said he didn’t see the need for a UMIK-2. Hopefully that was a good choice.
 

Pearljam5000

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I think people are tend to exaggerate that whole SPL thing
I heard the 8361 at an open space inside a not so small store
And I was blown away by how loud they could get
I had to turn the volume down so i won't disturb all the people inside the store.
 

FeddyLost

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So the final system I hope to ACTUALLY plug up this weekend is
I think for "customer listening" it will be completely enough if you need just stereo without THX SPLs.
Maybe subwoofer shall be placed closer to main listening position to flatten most important FR. Everything you'll see after measurement.
But anyway for speeding things up I'd model this system in REW Room Sim first.
 

Jonessön

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I made one more change to the system (this is all before installing it!) and this will help. Instead of the Parasound unit, I decided to get a MiniDSP SHD. So now I can do what everyone here says… measure and correct!

So the final system I hope to ACTUALLY plug up this weekend is:

MiniDSP SHD
Genelec 8040B (pair)
SVS SB-2000 Pro (single, for now)

Hopefully I can figure out the Dirac stuff, sub setup, etc. I’m capable of it but never have enough time to dig into things as much as I’d like.
How do you connect subwoofer to that? MiniDSP SHD dont have sub out
 
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