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Genelec GLM4 High pass Filter for Speakers set as Large in AVR

Sprint

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I will be measuring my Genelecs and do room correction using GLM4 today. Until now my Genelec 8340 are corrected via GLM3. My Yamaha AVR RXV775 does something strange. When I set speakers to large and choose extra bass, I get more information into Genelec monitors when compared to setting the speakers to small and use a cross over at 80hz. On the other hand, the music information when speakers set to small in AVR is much smoother than setting it to large. Somewhere in other forums I learnt that Yamaha messes up between 100 -200 HZ and hence once has the feeling that some information is lost. There it was adviced to send the full range to speakers and do the crossover cut off external and not in AVR.

What I want to do is set speakers as large in Yamaha AVR but introduce a high pass filter in Genelec monitors for 80 HZ so that Yamaha sends full range to speakers and with the high pass filter set in GLM all frequencies below 80 HZ does not get passed to genelecs. BTW, I use 2 SVS 12inch subs and use Minidsp DDRC24 (Dirac) to correct subwoofers. I am also using a RPI4 with Topping D10s to pass additional digital signal to both Genelecs (via SPDIF/AES XLR) and SVS (via Toslink to Minidsp). With the high pass filer setting, the digital signals which are full range can also be filtered to pass signal only above 80hz to Genelec monitors.

Could you please help?
 
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@richard12511 : Any thoughts since you are currently trying GLM4?
 

richard12511

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@richard12511 : Any thoughts since you are currently trying GLM4?

Yeah I was finally able to get a calibration that sounds comparable to what I get with Dirac. Not sure which I like more, honestly. Ultimately, though I have to use Dirac, since GLM only works with the 7370s, but for strictly 2.0, they were very comparable.

I suppose I could try using both :D. First pass with GLM, second pass(and to integrate the subs) with Dirac. Are there significant downsides to EQing twice?
 

Sancus

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I'm a bit confused what the actual question is, but you can set a bass management crossover in GLM even if you don't have GLM subs. When you do that, it will act as a high pass though I'm not sure offhand what the slope is(I've confirmed via REW that the high pass is indeed in place even if you have no sub). If there is a slope mismatch between the low pass on your subs and the GLM high pass it could cause issues, but I would hope you can deal with that via miniDSP. If Yamaha AVRs are really broken between 100-200hz when speakers are set to small I would say that's a pretty huge bug since that should be the default mode of operation for every user...

Are there significant downsides to EQing twice?

The only one I can think of is latency, but since GLM is a pretty minimalist REQ it only produces like 2-3ms of latency as far as I can tell. That is a far cry from Dirac which can produce as much as 20ms from a miniDSP I believe. Which makes sense, since studio monitors need to be usable with real/virtual instrument playback and 20ms might be too much for that.

I use GLM prior to Audyssey with my AVR and there aren't any issues that I've noticed, it makes the Audyssey correction do less is all.
 
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Sprint

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I'm a bit confused what the actual question is, but you can set a bass management crossover in GLM even if you don't have GLM subs. When you do that, it will act as a high pass though I'm not sure offhand what the slope is(I've confirmed via REW that the high pass is indeed in place even if you have no sub). If there is a slope mismatch between the low pass on your subs and the GLM high pass it could cause issues, but I would hope you can deal with that via miniDSP. If Yamaha AVRs are really broken between 100-200hz when speakers are set to small I would say that's a pretty huge bug since that should be the default mode of operation for every user...

Thanks! As far as I remember, I think I did set the bass crossover in GLM. But when I set toggle in my AVR between small and large speaker, I do hear a sound difference with the Genelecs. But normally it should not right because even if I send a full range, GLM should not send any frequency below the cross over. Let me retest and report.
 
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@Sancus:
Today I had set up a Raspberry PI3 feeding into Topping D10s via USB. Then from the Topping, I connected Genelec via SPIDF - AES cable. I also connected to minidsp DDRC24 via toslink cable. But for the test I switched off the subs. I was running some Jazz music from Qobuz via PI3. Oh my God, Genelecs sounded so good. I have never heard so good Bass coming from such a small 8340 monitors. very impressed. It could be that when I initially set up my GLM, I probably had not selected bass management crossover. Because when I set speakers to small, the sound is different compared to set it to large where it is sending full range. Via Topping, it is anyway full range. Since I am able to head deep bass, I probably would have not set bass management crossover initially in GLM.

Tomorrow I will run Qobuz via Yamaha in Pure Direct mode without Subs. I will test it and see how Genelecs sound.

After this test, I will run GLM4 with setting up of proper Cross over frequency.

Another question: What is your experience on Genelecs without subs. After today hearing on digital input via PI3, Topping, I am asking myself if I really need a sub for 8340 in 2 channel music. But somewhere else I read, using subs and a bass crossover gives more clarity to the sound in mid range and also cleans the mid range. Would be happy to hear your opinion.
 

Sancus

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Another question: What is your experience on Genelecs without subs. After today hearing on digital input via PI3, Topping, I am asking myself if I really need a sub for 8340 in 2 channel music. But somewhere else I read, using subs and a bass crossover gives more clarity to the sound in mid range and also cleans the mid range. Would be happy to hear your opinion.

Adding a subwoofer or going from 2-way to 3-way both decrease IMD, which can improve clarity if it was audible in the first place. I've done a bit of listening with and without the subwoofer on with my 8351Bs and did not notice anything but the extension difference, but they are 3-ways to begin with and would have much lower IMD than the 2-way 83x0 or 80x0 lines. I've never compared the 2-way Genelecs with/without subwoofer and have only heard them in pro audio shops a couple of times, over a year ago, so I can't tell you much about your use case.
 

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8341 user here. Sorry to butt in but I have a question about the high pass filter in the GLM software.

I, like @Sprint, use two identical subwoofers for the low end and would like to introduce an 80hz crossover via my mindspSHD.
When I set the bass management within the GLM software to 80hz, when carrying out a calibration, the speaker still play full range.
I assumed that because I introduced a low pass filter, the GLM software would not measure below that frequency.

How does it work?
 

Sparky

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While I'm at it, is it best to individually measure my 8341's or do a symmetrical sweep? My room is a typical English lounge which is full of sift furnishings etc. I'm guessing you'll tell me to do an individual sweep?

Can anyone share their measurements from their Genelecs as it would be interesting to see how others rooms have affected the response.
I personally feel that the response in my room was quite poor for a coaxial driver configuration.

2021-07-02 (1).png
 
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Sprint

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8341 user here. Sorry to butt in but I have a question about the high pass filter in the GLM software.

I, like @Sprint, use two identical subwoofers for the low end and would like to introduce an 80hz crossover via my mindspSHD.
When I set the bass management within the GLM software to 80hz, when carrying out a calibration, the speaker still play full range.
I assumed that because I introduced a low pass filter, the GLM software would not measure below that frequency.

How does it work?
@Sparky I have shared my measurements here. By the way, you can set the 80hz crossover only when you use SAM Subwoofers from Genelec. If you use non Genelec Subs, then the Genelecs play full range. In this case, the crossover needs to be set outside. For movies, I set my crossover of 80 HZ in my AVR Yamaha RXV775. Everything below 80 hz goes to minidsp DDRC24 and DIRAC corrects the signal to apply room correction before they are sent to my SVS subs. For 2ch stereo music, I played full range via AES from my Topping D90s on my Genelecs and 20-250 HZ in my SVS via a Toslink . However this is not optimal as subs and Genelecs should not play the same frequency as there is a chance of cancellation, though it is not audible to me. Now I have brought minidsp nanodigi to introduce a highness filter of 80hz to my Genelecs. So I will use SPIDF from Topping to Nanodigi. Apply a HPF and then use a SPIDF AES from nanodigi to Genelecs. I have not done the set up yet but I plan to do it in the next weeks.
 

Sparky

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@Sparky I have shared my measurements here. By the way, you can set the 80hz crossover only when you use SAM Subwoofers from Genelec. If you use non Genelec Subs, then the Genelecs play full range. In this case, the crossover needs to be set outside. For movies, I set my crossover of 80 HZ in my AVR Yamaha RXV775. Everything below 80 hz goes to minidsp DDRC24 and DIRAC corrects the signal to apply room correction before they are sent to my SVS subs. For 2ch stereo music, I played full range via AES from my Topping D90s on my Genelecs and 20-250 HZ in my SVS via a Toslink . However this is not optimal as subs and Genelecs should not play the same frequency as there is a chance of cancellation, though it is not audible to me. Now I have brought minidsp nanodigi to introduce a highness filter of 80hz to my Genelecs. So I will use SPIDF from Topping to Nanodigi. Apply a HPF and then use a SPIDF AES from nanodigi to Genelecs. I have not done the set up yet but I plan to do it in the next weeks.
Hiya.

Well, you've just saved me a lot of headaches! I spent the whole day yesterday playing around with GLM and could never understand why, when I applied a 80hz xover to the 8341's via GLM, it didn't carry it out.
I was using REW to confirm the measurements and I got frustrated and gave up!

I've got my subs working really well together so I'm happy that only a few points if EQ via the SHD will give me a nice house curve for the subs.

Now I know I have to do it through the SHD, I can start making sense of it all.

Can I ask, do you HAVE to run a DIRAC calibration or can you ignore it? Does not running a DIRAC sweep have any effect on how the SHD functions? I feel that I'm happy with what the GLM software comes up with.
Ok, my speaker positioning isn't great but still, I don't want too much EQ interference.
 

Sparky

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Thank you by the way for your input! I appreciate it :)
 

Sancus

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If you set a crossover with no subs present in GLM it will act as a high pass ONLY, or at least it used to, I definitely saw that in REW measurements. However, it wouldn't affect the GLM calibration in any case. GLM should still calibrate the full range, because the speaker is still going to be partially playing below the crossover anyway(at lower SPL) and you don't want it to be uncorrected...

That said, if you have non-Genelec subs you need something else doing the low pass for the subs as well, GLM cannot do that, and since the SHD has full crossover configurability it is definitely best to use it.
 

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If you set a crossover with no subs present in GLM it will act as a high pass ONLY, or at least it used to, I definitely saw that in REW measurements. However, it wouldn't affect the GLM calibration in any case. GLM should still calibrate the full range, because the speaker is still going to be partially playing below the crossover anyway(at lower SPL) and you don't want it to be uncorrected...

That said, if you have non-Genelec subs you need something else doing the low pass for the subs as well, GLM cannot do that, and since the SHD has full crossover configurability it is definitely best to use it.

I think it comes down to my inexperience with the GLM software and active speakers in general.
I have always had passive speakers with pre/pro set up using room correction software I'm familiar with.

I will use the SHD as it's best for, parametric EQ and HP/LP filtering.

The next step is to find the crossover point that works best in my room. :D
 
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If you set a crossover with no subs present in GLM it will act as a high pass ONLY, or at least it used to, I definitely saw that in REW measurements. However, it wouldn't affect the GLM calibration in any case. GLM should still calibrate the full range, because the speaker is still going to be partially playing below the crossover anyway(at lower SPL) and you don't want it to be uncorrected...

That said, if you have non-Genelec subs you need something else doing the low pass for the subs as well, GLM cannot do that, and since the SHD has full crossover configurability it is definitely best to use it.

I think this was possible via GLM 3. After I spoke to Genelec Reps, I understood, even though it allowed to set Bass Management Filter it worked only in combination with Genelec subs. Else it produced all frequencies. In GLM 4, it is different. One cannot even set it.
 

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I think this was possible via GLM 3. After I spoke to Genelec Reps, I understood, even though it allowed to set Bass Management Filter it worked only in combination with Genelec subs. Else it produced all frequencies. In GLM 4, it is different. One cannot even set it.

I feel that this way if doing things is grossly unfair on the part of Genelec as they're trying to force you to buy their product.

Their subs are no different to any other apart from the fact they are compatible with GLM and allow multiple parametric EQ settings to be applied.

The price of their subs is stupendous and I wouldn't consider buying one.
But...you would need 2 if them at least to get an adequate in room response.

Double the money....:D
 
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Hiya.

Well, you've just saved me a lot of headaches! I spent the whole day yesterday playing around with GLM and could never understand why, when I applied a 80hz xover to the 8341's via GLM, it didn't carry it out.
I was using REW to confirm the measurements and I got frustrated and gave up!

I've got my subs working really well together so I'm happy that only a few points if EQ via the SHD will give me a nice house curve for the subs.

Now I know I have to do it through the SHD, I can start making sense of it all.

Can I ask, do you HAVE to run a DIRAC calibration or can you ignore it? Does not running a DIRAC sweep have any effect on how the SHD functions? I feel that I'm happy with what the GLM software comes up with.
Ok, my speaker positioning isn't great but still, I don't want too much EQ interference.

I run the DIRAC only for the subs. Genelecs are run via GLM 4. The combo is very good and I am happy. I do not want to add DIRAC to Genelecs as adding more room correction will ruin and remove the details. In fact with my GLM, I did only a 3 Point measurement (one on the left of my couch, middle and right of my couch). I could have done more than 5 but I did not like the sound.
 
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I feel that this way if doing things is grossly unfair on the part of Genelec as they're trying to force you to buy their product.

Their subs are no different to any other apart from the fact they are compatible with GLM and allow multiple parametric EQ settings to be applied.

The price of their subs is stupendous and I wouldn't consider buying one.
But...you would need 2 if them at least to get an adequate in room response.

Double the money....:D

Absolutely agree. As part of my future investments, I plan to go for 2 Genelec 7360 as front subs to get the perfect bass management integrated with my 8340's. Still use 2 SVS subs which are 12 inch as rear subs.
 

Sparky

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I run the DIRAC only for the subs. Genelecs are run via GLM 4. The combo is very good and I am happy. I do not want to add DIRAC to Genelecs as adding more room correction will ruin and remove the details. In fact with my GLM, I did only a 3 Point measurement (one on the left of my couch, middle and right of my couch). I could have done more than 5 but I did not like the sound.

I've used DIRAC on numerous occasions before and I've had mixed results.
With my very basic set up, I feel that I don't require DIRAC as GLM paired with the parametric EQ of the minidsp should suffice.

I do have a couple of nasty dips in my response though and I am devastated that they're there so I might play around with placement but I'm really limited in where I can move them to be honest!

I wish I was one of those people that knows what each null or large dip means as in, is it floor/ceiling/sidewall/SBIR etc etc.
 

Sparky

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Absolutely agree. As part of my future investments, I plan to go for 2 Genelec 7360 as front subs to get the perfect bass management integrated with my 8340's. Still use 2 SVS subs which are 12 inch as rear subs.

Sounds exciting! :)
I would love to do that but I neither have the room nor the cash to do it! Plus the wife would kill me as our subs are BK Electronic XXLS 400's in a lovely walnut finish. They look like furniture so she'd lose her mind if they got replaced! :D
 
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