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Genelec GLM software and the 7350A Subwoofer

Sancus

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Where do you feel the scales tip for Genelec subs? 2x 7350s is exact same price as 1x 7360, at least here in the USA. That's currently my conundrum. It's for my office so it's basically 1 listening position, music only.
2x7350s will be better than 1x7360. My original post was just saying that a miniDSP with two 12" sealed subs from your choice of manufacturer(SVS SB1000, etc) will be better and cheaper.

The SAM sub advantage is convenience, since it's a one step setup with little or no work required.
 

Tangband

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My lounge is 3.9 x 4.5 metres so is considered small and I know from previous experience that my particular room definitely needs two subs as the peaks and nulls are just too much for any room correction software to deal with when just one sub is in play.

I would much prefer two 7350's due to the footprint of the subs for a start and the price. I can't justify spending £3200 for two 7360's as much as I would like to! :oops:
Second hand market is incredible good with Genelec. If you buy a 7350 new, you dont loose much money if you feel that one 7350 is to weak and want to go 7360 instead.
You could also go for a minidsp and two SVS closed box as Sancus recommend, but in this case I would buy the SVS second hand, not new.

If Amirm would review a SVS 1000 sub and a Genelec 7350, we would know for sure which is the best.:)

Putting all this aside - the 7350 and the analog 7050c are incredible heavy and well built compared to almost all other subs in the same size. An 8 inch driver with slotport can teoretical play as loud in the bass ( 30 hz ) as a really small 12 inch closed box with Linkwitz transformer ( such as SVS Sb1000 ) .

This is mkt:s measurement ( at the bottom of picture ) of the frequency respons of his 7350 .
Upper picture shows SVS sb1000.
053530BD-15B5-412E-AA5B-20202F61BE20.png

D6C97511-C45B-47EF-9B3B-A95ABD6D9F88.png
 
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Sparky

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Second hand market is incredible good with Genelec. If you buy a 7350 new, you dont loose much money if you feel that one 7350 is to weak and want to go 7360 instead.
You could also go for a minidsp and two SVS closed box as Sancus recommend, but in this case I would buy the SVS second hand, not new.

If Amirm would review a SVS 1000 sub and a Genelec 7350, we would know for sure which is the best.:)

Putting all this aside - the 7350 and the analog 7050c are incredible heavy and well built compared to almost all other subs in the same size. An 8 inch driver with slotport can teoretical play as loud in the bass ( 30 hz ) as a really small 12 inch closed box with Linkwitz transformer ( such as SVS Sb1000 ) .

This is mkt:s measurement ( at the bottom of picture ) of the frequency respons of his 7350 .
Upper picture shows SVS sb1000.
View attachment 196889
View attachment 196887
Is the SPL set to maximum with the 7350 chart above? LFE is 10dB hotter than any other channel so that's a bit of a concern. If so, then clearly the 7350 can reach lower but does not have the power to drive it to reference level in a home theatre environment. Still, an interesting comparison when you look at ease of use.
If you go with the 7350, you'll have the advantage of seamless blending with your mains with the GLM kit whereas if you go for the SVS, you'll have to manually measure the levels/EQ/DSP with REW to get an accurate understanding of what is going on.
Also, you'll need a DAC like the miniDSP SHD to deal with input selection, volume control and an analogue feed to the SVS's.
 

onion

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Where do you feel the scales tip for Genelec subs? 2x 7350s is exact same price as 1x 7360, at least here in the USA. That's currently my conundrum. It's for my office so it's basically 1 listening position, music only.
I have two 7360s and a 7350 that I originally purchased with the 8341s. If I were to do it again, I'd have avoided the 7350. The 7360 has better bass extension; GLM is very good at getting even bass in a single sub setup; and for me the marginal benefit of two 7350s delivering more even bass does not outweigh the relative lack of bass extension compared to a single 7360.
 
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Sparky

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I have two 7360s and a 7350 that I originally purchased with the 8341s. If I were to do it again, I'd have avoided the 7350. The 7360 has better bass extension; GLM is very good at getting even bass in a single sub setup; and for me the marginal benefit of two 7350s delivering more even bass does not outweigh the relative lack of bass extension compared to a single 7360.
Really? With the many many years of REW use when it comes to subwoofer alignment/integration, the ONLY way I found to make any headway regarding an even bass response at either a single seat or multiple seat configuration is to add multiple subwoofers.
A bare minimum of two subwoofers would be required to even out the peaks and nulls and that is still with careful placement.
With one subwoofer at a single position, the frequency response you get at that position is final and no amount of EQ will fix that.
You generally have two options with one sub. Either just Eq the peaks (as you can't boost a null) or increase the gain on your sub manually so that the nulls are at a higher SPL level and EQ from that point. The problem with that is you're running your sub at full tilt which isn't such a great idea.

If the GLM software is capable of flattening out the response of a single sub (including the nulls) then it is performing something that is rather special and it is something I would certainly be interested in.

Totally agree that the 7360A is a better sub but it is significantly more expensive for only a slight increase in SPL and extension.
 

Iskariota

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If the GLM software is capable of flattening out the response of a single sub (including the nulls)
GLM takes care of the peaks, but like you said earlier, boosting a null is not really feasible.

Below is what GLM managed to fix with my single 7360A (green is the corrected response). For the time being I have to live with the two -10db nulls since I can't move the sub more, but everything else is pretty decent now. I'm happy anyways :)

1648991605407.png
 
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Sparky

Sparky

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GLM takes care of the peaks, but like you said earlier, boosting a null is not really feasible.

Below is what GLM managed to fix with my single 7360A (green is the corrected response). For the time being I have to live with the two -10db nulls since I can't move the sub more, but everything else is pretty decent now. I'm happy anyways :)

View attachment 197403
Very very impressive!! I suppose from a psychoacoustic perspective, those two nulls would be barely perceptible in your room.
The thing to consider here is that the response above is just one moment in time at one single position. overall, I imagine it would not really be a concern.

Well done! :)

It has made me consider a single 7360A with a view to adding a second in the future. :cool:
 
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Sparky

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Non Genelec Subs in my room.jpg


These are my two non-Genelec subs in my room measured with no EQ or DSP. If I was to place two Genelec Subs (either 7350/7360A's) in these precise locations, I would be looking good. It will all come down to SPL and extension really. The blue trace is them both combined with no delay applied, just raw measurement. The only thing is that there is an 80hz x-over applied with the blue trace.
 

Tangband

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View attachment 197408

These are my two non-Genelec subs in my room measured with no EQ or DSP. If I was to place two Genelec Subs (either 7350/7360A's) in these precise locations, I would be looking good. It will all come down to SPL and extension really. The blue trace is them both combined with no delay applied, just raw measurement. The only thing is that there is an 80hz x-over applied with the blue trace.
A frequency response curve can tell some things, but not anything how articulate the bass will be, or how dynamic the bass will sound.
 
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Sparky

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A frequency response curve can tell some things, but not anything how articulate the bass will be, or how dynamic the bass will sound.
I think as far as how articulate or dynamic the bass sounds, that is all dependant on the house curve you use (if any). If you have a flat response from 14hz to 20kHz then your listening experience could be considered quite drab and boring. However, if you have a decent house curve, then your bass will come alive and that is where the dynamics come in.
SPL plays the biggest part though. That is why I love the "loudness" feature of the RME ADI2 as it boosts the lower frequencies when listening at low levels to ensure you still have some kick in the bass regions (or dynamics).

That's my understanding of it anyway.
 

kthulhutu

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I listen from a single seat in a small room with corner traps. I have one 7360 placed slightly off-centre on the front wall, and GLM gets me a smooth response from 14 to the 60hz crossover. So I think in more ideal conditions a single sub is enough.
 
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lappy

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Hey Guys.

I run 2 x 8341As on iron stands (hanging mount) with one 7360A in a 25m2 room (roughly square-shaped; ceiling 2,75m high) with no treatment and low-to-medium clutter, no rugs. Before adding the sub I had some serious standing wave issues on a very narrow range of low frequencies but the sub fixed them as I expected. GLM works miracles although current iteration (4.1.2) has a small hiccup where it doesn't load the calibrated preset into the sub at startup (fine with monitors) and you have to click the preset button in the app to "nudge" it. Proud to say I brought the bug to Genelec's attention and they are now in the process of fixing it with a new firmware/GLM update! Fantastic support all-round I must say.

And the one sub is enough, trust me. Those things are fabulously powerful and work absolute wonders with the unparalleled GLM calibration -- which IMO is a must already for the 8341As alone, and unquestionably when the sub is involved.

Anyways, my two cents. I feed the Genelec gear from an RME ADI-2 FS and this set up will stay with me until something breaks. I can't imagine any piece of boutique hardware beating the sheer science of it all (also helps I'm an unsentimental clarity and 1:1 reproduction freak lol).

Happy to answer any questions.

Also my first post on ASR :D

Peace.
Can you clarify, please: "has a small hiccup where it doesn't load the calibrated preset into the sub at startup (fine with monitors) and you have to click the preset button in the app to "nudge" it"
What do mean with "startup"?
 

Iskariota

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Can you clarify, please: "has a small hiccup where it doesn't load the calibrated preset into the sub at startup (fine with monitors) and you have to click the preset button in the app to "nudge" it"
What do mean with "startup"?
Hey-hey.

Sure. By "startup" I meant powering up the system with GLM (I have the app controlling power of both the monitors and the sub).

So, when I open the GLM app, the monitors and the sub turn on (power on), but only the monitors get auto-loaded with the current calibration preset. The sub needs a "nudge" of clicking the preset button on the app, in the upper right corner:

1650883026829.png


In my case, it's the button that says "Bliss v2" :p

Once clicked, the sub gets the preset in and the system is ready to melt ears and blow minds.

So basically, if one is rocking a 7360A with their monitors, current version of GLM has a bug where one more click is required to correctly load the calibration preset into the sub, as described above. Not sure if this is true for other subs as well from the 73XX series, but anyways Genelec are aware of the "issue" and expect it to be fixed on the next GLM update.
 

HooStat

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And just to clarify, this is after you have loaded the profile to the sub and set the DIP switch that stores the profile on the sub so that it can run even without GLM?
 

Iskariota

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And just to clarify, this is after you have loaded the profile to the sub and set the DIP switch that stores the profile on the sub so that it can run even without GLM?
Nope, haven't done/tried that as I want full control over calibration and what preset of it is in use exclusively via GLM.
 

lappy

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I'm using 2x 8351A + 2x 7350 at 73dB usually at 1m distance in a concrete room.

GLM won't fix deep nulls (unless with W371A) but it can bring down the excessive frequencies & gives a cleaner bass especially with GLM 4.1.x onwards.
With 2 subs you can have better frequencies (if the sub able to cover each other nulls in your room) & wider low frequency envelopment with the right content.

this is my 7350 fr
View attachment 194114

add in 7360 which I borrowed from my dealer to test with GLM 3.x for your reference. I picked 7350 because it is good enough for my needs.
View attachment 194117

I would recommend if possible you borrow a GLM kit from ur dealer to play around 1st.
You would need to set the Left sub to channel A & Right sub to channel B to stereo sub with digital AES input.
View attachment 194115

GLM will auto calibrate & auto phase.
You can do manual adjustment later which I think you can study from the GLM manual.
View attachment 194116

Eng
A question regarding "You would need to set the Left sub to channel A & Right sub to channel B to stereo sub with digital AES input". Shouldn't both A and B be checked so that both subs outputs the same information (I think the de facto standard)?
 

YSC

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From what I am using the 7040A with rew and EQAPO I can achieve the target curve down to around 27hz flat, for the nulls you can actually have 2 ways imo to deal with.
One is to try position the sub to a location it moves the nulls above your cross over point. Another is try to add some significant boost EQ (which I did). The distortion at the boosted null goes up as expected to approximately 3-5% there at normal listening volume. But in bass that’s not perceivable and my listening test confirmed that and that’s what I choose to do. A higher but not noticeable distortion spectrum instead of lack of bass
 

lvy

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A question regarding "You would need to set the Left sub to channel A & Right sub to channel B to stereo sub with digital AES input". Shouldn't both A and B be checked so that both subs outputs the same information (I think the de facto standard)?
I think it depends ur speaker's technology and usage & purpose.

Technology
Analog - I think with analog, you can only go for multi subs output both lfe channel which is why most multi sub configuration output both channel (I'm not sure whether analog system can set the left or right sub to output either left or right lfe channel)
DSP - with digital / AES, I can output left sub with left lfe channel & right sub with right lfe channel

Usage & Purpose
left sub output left lfe channel + right sub output right lfe channel - I'm listening stereo nearfield and my purpose is to extend 8351's lower frequency to 20Hz, this configuration would turn my system into a 4way stereo system which can goes down to 20Hz with crossover @ 100Hz.

left & right sub output both lfe channel - if your usage is for home theater and the purpose is to have more bass filling up the room then I think you would go for this configuration.


You would ask me why stereo subs since sub bass are usually mono?
I started with 1 sub with crossover @ 80Hz which basically anything below 80Hz will be mono.

After some time, I decided to add another sub initially to cover my 1st sub's null frequency. But after some reading & checking with Genelec I realize I can pair each speaker with each sub if I have a pair of sub.

With a such configuration, I can get stereo information down to 20Hz. It's not day & night difference, but the envelopment of left & right lfe channel with the right content is very addicting & satisfying (you feel that you are in the bubble of sound even more). It is beyond point of diminishing returns but I'm pretty happy with the results.
 

lappy

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I think it depends ur speaker's technology and usage & purpose.

Technology
Analog - I think with analog, you can only go for multi subs output both lfe channel which is why most multi sub configuration output both channel (I'm not sure whether analog system can set the left or right sub to output either left or right lfe channel)
DSP - with digital / AES, I can output left sub with left lfe channel & right sub with right lfe channel

Usage & Purpose
left sub output left lfe channel + right sub output right lfe channel - I'm listening stereo nearfield and my purpose is to extend 8351's lower frequency to 20Hz, this configuration would turn my system into a 4way stereo system which can goes down to 20Hz with crossover @ 100Hz.

left & right sub output both lfe channel - if your usage is for home theater and the purpose is to have more bass filling up the room then I think you would go for this configuration.


You would ask me why stereo subs since sub bass are usually mono?
I started with 1 sub with crossover @ 80Hz which basically anything below 80Hz will be mono.

After some time, I decided to add another sub initially to cover my 1st sub's null frequency. But after some reading & checking with Genelec I realize I can pair each speaker with each sub if I have a pair of sub.

With a such configuration, I can get stereo information down to 20Hz. It's not day & night difference, but the envelopment of left & right lfe channel with the right content is very addicting & satisfying (you feel that you are in the bubble of sound even more). It is beyond point of diminishing returns but I'm pretty happy with the results.
I don't know...I am far from an expert, but shouldn't mono bass have much more potential to even out the bass? https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/stereo-bass
As for GLM, does GLM even have functionality for "matching" nulls and peaks for two subwoofers running in stereo? Also, the pairing performed in GLM is just for phase calculation as far as I know.
 

ferrellms

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Hi all.

I have a question regarding the Genelec GLM software and how it integrates the "7" series SAM subwoofers with compatible SAM Monitors.

I am considering replacing my aged 12" sealed active subwoofers (Analogue RCA input only) with the 7350A to create a purely Digital signal flow from my 8341AWM's.
Currently, I use two subwoofers to cancel out the huge nulls/peaks in my lounge via a minidsp SHD and that works very well.
I get a flat frequency response from 17hz right up to my cross-over point which is great but this leads on to my question, will I need two 7350A's in my room to obtain the same flat response or does the GLM software do some sort of trickery to do the same but with just one 7350A?

As good as the GLM software is, I can't see how the DSP can break the laws of physics by creating the same flat response from just one subwoofer!

Any of you Genelec owners use two or more subs or is just the one sub ok?
The GLM will do the trick with just one sub but only for a single listening spot. Moving from that spot will reveal nulls and peaks.
 
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