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Genelec Dual Sub Optimisation

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I'm going to completely annoy @Pekka Perämoottori now by revealing my final decision!

I have decided to ditch the Genelec 7360A subwoofer idea for a number of reasons;

1- Price vs Performance is poor when pitted against non-Genelec subwoofers
2- Only one colour available in the Genelec range
3- Industrial look does not suit our lounge environment
4- Cabinet dimensions are a touch too big (when looking at height)

I have decided to order a pair of Arendal 1723 S1 subwoofers in White Satin finish as I feel, after doing quite a bit of research and through speaking to a friend who owns the very same subwoofers, they cannot be beaten in their price bracket for the following reasons;

1- Price vs performance is very hard to beat at this price range
2- Multiple colours available in black or white and gloss/satin finishes
3- Very pleasing to the eye and will not look out of place in a standard lounge (added benefit of the white satin matching my current white 8341AWM's)
4- Cabinet size and style will not dominate the room
5- Balanced XLR inputs which will prevent the current issue I have with ground loops with my unbalanced subwoofers
6- Bass extension and SPL levels are perfect for my room
7- App control which allows for not only level matching but also allows for pairing subwoofers together in a group where group delay can be adjusted, subsonic filters, Low Pass frequency and roll off can be adjusted and saved to the sub. There are many many more features with this app too.
8- Will keep the wife happy with the looks and colour to match the room.

I use an RME ADI2 pro fs r be where I would've had to use a minidsp 2x4HD to allow for level matching, x-over, group delay etc etc but not now with the Arendal App so that's one less device in the chain!

I feel this the correct one for my environment and although I'm a bit gutted that I couldn't get the 7360A's to work for me, I'm happy with the outcome.
I'm a bit of a tweaker anyway so will enjoy measuring my room again with REW where I'll be able to blend the subs and mains together nicely. :)
 

Pegwill

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Hi
One thing you might consider is locating the sub or subs in the near field. There are quite a lot of references to this on YouTube so I thought I would give it a try.

I put my sub behind my listening chair. The first thing that I had to do was reduce the volume of the sub. I then reduced the distance (in MSP) to 0.0m as oppose to 2.8m. Once the volume balance was sorted I was quite surprised just how much low frequencies I could hear. Although it has only been a couple of days since I did this, I quite like it. The rational behind this appears to be the the influence of the room has minimal or no effect. As the volume is reduced i keep putting my hand on the sub to feel the vibration to confirm it’s working. The impact on the main speakers seems to allow a greater definition of the stereo image and yet still provide low frequency.

Although i’m still testing the effect, a by product of course is that there is no boom from the sub as its volume is really reduced from that previous, my feeling is that I will probably keep it like this.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Pegwill
 

Ecksbocks

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I'm going to completely annoy @Pekka Perämoottori now by revealing my final decision!

I have decided to ditch the Genelec 7360A subwoofer idea for a number of reasons;

1- Price vs Performance is poor when pitted against non-Genelec subwoofers
2- Only one colour available in the Genelec range
3- Industrial look does not suit our lounge environment
4- Cabinet dimensions are a touch too big (when looking at height)

I have decided to order a pair of Arendal 1723 S1 subwoofers in White Satin finish as I feel, after doing quite a bit of research and through speaking to a friend who owns the very same subwoofers, they cannot be beaten in their price bracket for the following reasons;

1- Price vs performance is very hard to beat at this price range
2- Multiple colours available in black or white and gloss/satin finishes
3- Very pleasing to the eye and will not look out of place in a standard lounge (added benefit of the white satin matching my current white 8341AWM's)
4- Cabinet size and style will not dominate the room
5- Balanced XLR inputs which will prevent the current issue I have with ground loops with my unbalanced subwoofers
6- Bass extension and SPL levels are perfect for my room
7- App control which allows for not only level matching but also allows for pairing subwoofers together in a group where group delay can be adjusted, subsonic filters, Low Pass frequency and roll off can be adjusted and saved to the sub. There are many many more features with this app too.
8- Will keep the wife happy with the looks and colour to match the room.

I use an RME ADI2 pro fs r be where I would've had to use a minidsp 2x4HD to allow for level matching, x-over, group delay etc etc but not now with the Arendal App so that's one less device in the chain!

I feel this the correct one for my environment and although I'm a bit gutted that I couldn't get the 7360A's to work for me, I'm happy with the outcome.
I'm a bit of a tweaker anyway so will enjoy measuring my room again with REW where I'll be able to blend the subs and mains together nicely. :)
Congrats!

If one can't stand the looks of genelec, which I can comprehend, paying that price would be insane. In fact I do think my genelec subs look awful. The main thing for me is knowing I have matching parts in my setup, and that is due to my lack of knowledge I believe.



I noticed that Arendal have 14" driver in a cabinet that is almost the same size as Genelec 7360 which only has 10" driver. Very different ways to achieve the same goal?
 
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Trell

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I noticed that Arendal have 14" driver in a cabinet that is almost the same size as Genelec 7360 which only has 10" driver. Very different ways to achieve the same goal?

The Arendal is a sealed subwoofer while the Genelec is ported using what they call "Laminar Spiral Enclosure". My sealed SVS SB3000 subwoofers are also very compact with their 13" driver.


Edit: As of height of the 7360A I'm not so sure it's so easy to reduce as it has many XLR input/output available that does take space, and something I can see by just looking at my 7360A from left and right side. The "port" also need some space as well. Note that the enclosure for the driver is cylindrical in shape.

1673097679844.png
 
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Ecksbocks

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OP
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Hi
One thing you might consider is locating the sub or subs in the near field. There are quite a lot of references to this on YouTube so I thought I would give it a try.

I put my sub behind my listening chair. The first thing that I had to do was reduce the volume of the sub. I then reduced the distance (in MSP) to 0.0m as oppose to 2.8m. Once the volume balance was sorted I was quite surprised just how much low frequencies I could hear. Although it has only been a couple of days since I did this, I quite like it. The rational behind this appears to be the the influence of the room has minimal or no effect. As the volume is reduced i keep putting my hand on the sub to feel the vibration to confirm it’s working. The impact on the main speakers seems to allow a greater definition of the stereo image and yet still provide low frequency.

Although i’m still testing the effect, a by product of course is that there is no boom from the sub as its volume is really reduced from that previous, my feeling is that I will probably keep it like this.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Pegwill
Thank for your input Pegwill!

My current set up involves two 12" sealed subs where one is just off to the right of the couch (so nearfield within 1 metre) and the other is off to the left just in front to the left monitor. In order to gain match these identical subs, I had to really tone down the level knob on the nearfield sub to only a quarter turn on the dial compared to the almost 3 quarter turns for the sub at the monitors.

Everything you've said is correct and a nearfield position is optimal if it's at all possible!

Also, yes, there's no BOOM! in your room but that's the point isn't it, what we want is good quality, even bass that extends as low as possible without distortion whist maintaining that slam and impact but only where it is warranted.
I'm assuming you have a nice "house curve" set up??
 
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Congrats!

If one can't stand the looks of genelec, which I can comprehend, paying that price would be insane. In fact I do think my genelec subs look awful. The main thing for me is knowing I have matching parts in my setup, and that is due to my lack of knowledge I believe.



I noticed that Arendal have 14" driver in a cabinet that is almost the same size as Genelec 7360 which only has 10" driver. Very different ways to achieve the same goal?
Do you know what I like about you, you are willing to see flaws in your own set up without getting all worked up about it!

That attitude is refreshing on here and I applaud you for it! I must admit though, although I've ordered the Arendal's, I'm still jealous about your set up and the fact you have an all Genelec system. It's just a shame I couldn't make it work for me!
I wouldn't say you had a lack of knowledge! We all learn something new every day so don't beat yourself up!

Yes, the Arendal's I ordered are a 13.8" driver in a sealed cabinet.
I would've gone for the ported version but that cabinet size is just too much!! Extends lower and for longer though than the sealed version.
 
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The Arendal is a sealed subwoofer while the Genelec is ported using what they call "Laminar Spiral Enclosure". My sealed SVS SB3000 subwoofers are also very compact with their 13" driver.


Edit: As of height of the 7360A I'm not so sure it's so easy to reduce as it has many XLR input/output available that does take space, and something I can see by just looking at my 7360A from left and right side. Note that the enclosure for the driver is a cylinder.

View attachment 255573
Very clever engineering!! You can't fault Genelec when it comes to innovation!
 

Ecksbocks

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Do you know what I like about you, you are willing to see flaws in your own set up without getting all worked up about it!

That attitude is refreshing on here and I applaud you for it! I must admit though, although I've ordered the Arendal's, I'm still jealous about your set up and the fact you have an all Genelec system. It's just a shame I couldn't make it work for me!
I wouldn't say you had a lack of knowledge! We all learn something new every day so don't beat yourself up!

Yes, the Arendal's I ordered are a 13.8" driver in a sealed cabinet.
I would've gone for the ported version but that cabinet size is just too much!! Extends lower and for longer though than the sealed version.
Thanks man! What i meant with lack of knowledge was that with knowledge one get the freedom to pick components like you do and integrate them. I have tried and i didn’t work.

You will have a really nice setup, my 8351 gained a lot from subwoofers, big upgrade!!!
 

Tangband

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Hi all,

I'm hoping to hear from some Genelec subwoofer owners/users with regards to their set up at home/studio.
I own a pair of 8341's and have decided to go "all Genelec" in my home set up and have ordered a pair of 7360A's.
Focusing on the subwoofers only, I currently use a pair of active sealed 12" subs managed by a minidsp SHD where they have been level matched, aligned and crossed over at a suitable frequency with the use of REW.
With the above, I have managed to produce a flat response from 18hz onwards which I am really proud of (because it took me over 2 years to get right) so I am hoping to achieve a similar thing with two 7360A's and a GLM kit.

But here is the issue..........after doing a bit of digging, I have found that Genelec and dual subs do not necessarily mix well and this concerns me greatly.
My hope was to install the two subs, let the GLM kit align them together as one sub then select the closet monitor to choose an appropriate cross-over point.

My Genelec speakers will be fed through an RME ADI2 PRO FS R BE via the AES/EBU output so digital all the way to each driver.

Please somebody tell me that the process is going to go well otherwise I've just blown over £3k on subs that aren't going to blend together as they rightly should. :(

The best sound is obtained as its always been, long before DSP crossovers were even invented.
You can not cheat on loudspeaker installation. Always start with the main speakers with no subwoofers in the room.

1. Put your 8341 on 60 cm high loudspeakers stands. Install the speakers in the room so they play a kick-ass bass all by themselves, without subwoofers. You have to adjust your two speakers in the room with 5 cm differences at each time, listening for the best and most even bass tunes by the bass player on the record. Change the distance between the speakers and the distance to the frontwall. This will take some days to do before its done correctly . Dont use a microphone for this !

This is done before GLM is used, and you listen to real music from the listening position.
Robert Plant:s ” Little by little” is a useful track.

2. Now put your two Genelec 7360 near the inside of each 8341, and then push them back against the frontwall.

3. Use GLM calibration for all four speakers in only ONE point at the listening position.

4. Now the fun begins - the default crossover at 85 Hz are almost surely not gonna give you the best sound . Try everything between 50 - 100 Hz ( in 5 Hz steps ) .
Use the crossoverfrequency that sounds best ( use your ears ) . It will take some hours to optimize by ear.
Listen to the bass tunes. Dont use a microphone for this.

5. Go in manually in GLM, and put all GLM correction below 28 Hz to zero . You heard right - no corrections at all below 28 Hz. This will not change the perceived pitch , because a bassplayers lowest tone is 39 Hz ( tone Eb downtuned ) but it will get you a sence of impact and drama, especially when watching movies.

6. Try sound character profiler and print -3,5 dB at 100 Hz , so that everything higher than 100 Hz is attenuated with - 3,5 dB. This is done for your 8341 speakers. Now youre close to the prefered Toole/Olive sound curve.

7. Try set autocalibration to off, compare it with ”on”. If the sound is better ”off” , leave it that way. Its your ears that gonna be satisfied, not your microphone.
 
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Thanks man! What i meant with lack of knowledge was that with knowledge one get the freedom to pick components like you do and integrate them. I have tried and i didn’t work.

You will have a really nice setup, my 8351 gained a lot from subwoofers, big upgrade!!!
You're welcome bud!

I think I may have mentioned this before in an earlier post (or thread) but I have personally spent well over 20 grand (of money I certainly don't have and that I'm still paying for) on audio gear.
I've been searching for an elusive "perfect sound" in my room and it's taken me over 15 years to realise that my room is an extension of my speakers and is therefore, without room treatment, will never change.
The ONLY thing you can have a positive effect on is buying the right monitors for your personal space.
That means for me, in a 4.2x3.9x2.4 metre room, small monitors that naturally roll off at around 60hz where subwoofer can pick up where the monitors trail off.
My old way of doing thing was multiple driver speakers with huge rear facing ports which were always far too big for the room and then I wondered why the bass was always too wooly and boomy!!

The 8341's to me were a complete revelation and I can't see me ever changing them at all. :)
 
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The best sound is obtained as its always been, long before DSP crossovers were even invented.
You can not cheat on loudspeaker installation. Always start with the main speakers with no subwoofers in the room.

1. Put your 8341 on 60 cm high loudspeakers stands. Install the speakers in the room so they play a kick-ass bass all by themselves, without subwoofers. You have to adjust your two speakers in the room with 5 cm differences at each time, listening for the best and most even bass tunes by the bass player on the record. Change the distance between the speakers and the distance to the frontwall. This will take some days to do before its done correctly . Dont use a microphone for this !

This is done before GLM is used, and you listen to real music from the listening position.
Robert Plant:s ” Little by little” is a useful track.

2. Now put your two Genelec 7360 near the inside of each 8341, and then push them back against the frontwall.

3. Use GLM calibration for all four speakers in only ONE point at the listening position.

4. Now the fun begins - the default crossover at 85 Hz are almost surely not gonna give you the best sound . Try everything between 50 - 100 Hz ( in 5 Hz steps ) .
Use the crossoverfrequency that sounds best ( use your ears ) . It will take some hours to optimize by ear.
Listen to the bass tunes. Dont use a microphone for this.

5. Go in manually in GLM, and put all GLM correction below 28 Hz to zero . You heard right - no corrections at all below 28 Hz. This will not change the perceived pitch , because a bassplayers lowest tone is 39 Hz ( tone Eb downtuned ) but it will get you a sence of impact and drama, especially when watching movies.

6. Try sound character profiler and print -3,5 dB at 100 Hz , so that everything higher than 100 Hz is attenuated with - 3,5 dB. This is done for your 8341 speakers. Now youre close to the prefered Toole/Olive sound curve.

7. Try set autocalibration to off, compare it with ”on”. If the sound is better ”off” , leave it that way. Its your ears that gonna be satisfied, not your microphone.
Hi Tangband!

Your points made are really valuable although I am no longer buying the 7360A's I'm afraid, I've gone for a pair of Arendal 1723 1S subwoofers.

We are building a media wall soon so my 8341's will be placed within a cavity with their rear ports less than 5cms from the front wall but with their front dispersion plate protruding slightly so as to not cause any issues with the flow of air from any of the woofers.
I will be able to move the speakers freely along the wall too as I want to be able to create an equilateral triangle between the MLP and speakers.

I did look at buying the flush wall mounting kit from Genelec to install them into but after some emails from Genelec, it turns out that they are not designed to do anything but face forward. This would mean that my 8341's would not be aimed at the listening position but just facing forward into the room so I decided against that.

My subs will be placed in the corners of the front wall left and right so I'm hoping that that will be a positive move but we'll see about that.

I will certainly try your numbered methods though when it comes round to it as it seems like a productive thing to do!!
 

Ecksbocks

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5. Go in manually in GLM, and put all GLM correction below 28 Hz to zero . You heard right - no corrections at all below 28 Hz. This will not change the perceived pitch , because a bassplayers lowest tone is 39 Hz ( tone Eb downtuned ) but it will get you a sence of impact and drama, especially when watching movies.
No way dude, that would be a disaster. To each their own of course.
 

Tangband

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No way dude, that would be a disaster. To each their own of course.
Try it ;).
Anyway - if its a sound disaster then its easy to reprint the correction again, manualy. This is very room dependent.

What I was trying to say was - dont be affraid to try manual corrections after the GLM is done. GLM with autocalibration can give you 80 % of a better sound, If the speakers are correctly installed in the room. To make a really good sound, the best you have heard, you have to trust your ears and do the rest 20 % of better sound using GLM manualy.

Sometimes a shelving correction in GLM with -1 dB from 2500 Hz and higher in frequency can bring a better sound on many recordings. One have to try it to really know.

Its important to understand that a better sound can be had if starting with the correct loudspeaker placement without GLM.
GLM is no magic bullet, wrongly installed speakers with GLM is worse than perfect installed speakers without GLM.

GLM is the cream of the cake, but only If the cake taste good in the beginning.

One easy test is to simply turn off GLM and compare it to the GLM correction, very easy to do. If the noncorrected sound is better, then there is probably things done in the wrong way at the loudspeaker installation process.
 
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bodhi

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1- Price vs Performance is poor when pitted against non-Genelec subwoofers

Does your usage pattern make dual 7360s to be to inefficient in SPL? I think that least in small to mid sized living rooms those would play horribly loud to mid teens.

If not, then the price-performance comparison is kind of pointless. Yeah, SVS PB-3000 would probably kick the 7360 to moon and back in SPL, but how many need this extra oomph?

So, now the only question is if you want to pay $1500 extra per sub? To get easy GLM calibration? To have everything from the same brand? To have that comforting feeling that your subs are trusted by countless audio professionals? Does this kind of extra money for mostly emotional and practical reasons sounds completely outlandish, even in the objectivist world? Then why is this "poor price performance ratio" parroted so often with Genelec subs?

Disclaimer: I have had Genelec subs and won't get another. But I got some other poor price performance subs just for looks and brand. And for my purposes they give 100% of the performance of some value ported powerhouse.
 

Trell

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Does your usage pattern make dual 7360s to be to inefficient in SPL? I think that least in small to mid sized living rooms those would play horribly loud to mid teens.

If not, then the price-performance comparison is kind of pointless. Yeah, SVS PB-3000 would probably kick the 7360 to moon and back in SPL, but how many need this extra oomph?

So, now the only question is if you want to pay $1500 extra per sub? To get easy GLM calibration? To have everything from the same brand? To have that comforting feeling that your subs are trusted by countless audio professionals? Does this kind of extra money for mostly emotional and practical reasons sounds completely outlandish, even in the objectivist world? Then why is this "poor price performance ratio" parroted so often with Genelec subs?

Disclaimer: I have had Genelec subs and won't get another. But I got some other poor price performance subs just for looks and brand. And for my purposes they give 100% of the performance of some value ported powerhouse.

The "poor price performance ratio" with respect to output and extension is a sentiment I share, even though I own Genelec subs myself. I bought them for 2.1 desktop setups where I wanted to use GLM for room EQ and not depend on software running on PC or extra devices, as well as easy of setup.

Since this is near field and for my usage a 7360A works fine, and for my wife I got a 7350A on the way as an addition to her 2.0 8330A desktop setup.
 

bodhi

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The "poor price performance ratio" with respect to output and extension is a sentiment I share, even though I own Genelec subs myself. I bought them for 2.1 desktop setups where I wanted to use GLM for room EQ and not depend on software running on PC or extra devices, as well as easy of setup.

Since this is near field and for my usage a 7360A works fine, and for my wife I got a 7350A on the way as an addition to her 2.0 8330A desktop setup.

I don't disagree: the price-performance ratio can be measured objectively and it's a fact. But it matters less if the performance is good enough. Also, most of the equipment people have here is "bad price-performance". For example Purify amps or Benchmark DAC. And in speakers: compared to Kali LP6 V2 and for example Topping DX3 Pro+ for ~600€ most speaker setups have horrible price performance ratio. This doesn't seem to bother people as much as the Genelec subs.
 
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Genelec subwoofers won´t fry themself when user pushes them. They cover themself i.e. deny from making suicide: give user only red limiter light instead.

That makes their "price-performance" -ratio look bad, because sustainability is not taken into account, and as such considered worth nothing.

SVS subwoofers can be pushed to suicide, which looks nice in reviews, before it actually happens i.e. the reaper comes. Tortured driver may last 50 sine sweeps on impressive mega-SPL´s, bass-nerds jazzing around with super-hyper price-performance ratio. But 51. sweep may be enough, and the "first blew up the sound, then the subwoofer" -situation realises.

This wont´t likely happen in <80 dB IKEA-white -cases, like in this threads installation. But is lurking in the background for realistic volume -able users to end their price-performance -SPL-festivals. Probably quite soon.
 
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Tangband

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Correct crossover slopes are Alfa and Omega . Powerful or not.
If the active crossover are not good enough, the sound will be bad.
 
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Sparky

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Try it ;).
Anyway - if its a sound disaster then its easy to reprint the correction again, manualy. This is very room dependent.

What I was trying to say was - dont be affraid to try manual corrections after the GLM is done. GLM with autocalibration can give you 80 % of a better sound, If the speakers are correctly installed in the room. To make a really good sound, the best you have heard, you have to trust your ears and do the rest 20 % of better sound using GLM manualy.

Sometimes a shelving correction in GLM with -1 dB from 2500 Hz and higher in frequency can bring a better sound on many recordings. One have to try it to really know.

Its important to understand that a better sound can be had if starting with the correct loudspeaker placement without GLM.
GLM is no magic bullet, wrongly installed speakers with GLM is worse than perfect installed speakers without GLM.

GLM is the cream of the cake, but only If the cake taste good in the beginning.

One easy test is to simply turn off GLM and compare it to the GLM correction, very easy to do. If the noncorrected sound is better, then there is probably things done in the wrong way at the loudspeaker installation process.
I see where you're coming from @Tangband

Much like doing a lot of motorway driving in a car that has both comfort and sport mode suspension, if you only ever have it set to sport mode, you'll never know just how comfortable the drive could be.

I think your idea has some merit and I'll be giving that a go when the media wall is built.

It will be interesting to see what the frequency response is like in REW in different settings and configurations! :)

I made use of the sound profiler by dropping the treble a couple of dB and it completely changed the sound for the better, much less shrill in the high end,
 
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