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Genelec Dual Sub Optimisation

Zaireeka

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I thought of that too! I imagined I could fashion a small wooden frame to sit over the top of the 7360/7350 and fix a nice cloth that matches the lounge decor and allow the cloth to drape over them.

But, as I said earlier, thinking about the cost of these subwoofers when compared to other non-Genelec subs, I'm struggling to justify it.
I have the same philosophical issue, is the seamless GLM integration really worth the extra $$?
 
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Sparky

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I have the same philosophical issue, is the seamless GLM integration really worth the extra $$?
And there's the question right there! Is it as seamless as it makes out because we've had lots of conflicting info on here.
Nobody has actually come forward with definitive proof that GLM will 100% align two subwoofers as one subwoofer then go on to full integrate them with your mains.
We've only had some text off Genelec (which has still yet to be proven) and lots of assumptions.

That's a whole bucket load of money to spend on a pair of subwoofers which may or may not actually work as well as we think they will.

Yes we've had a statement from Genelec but they don't actually state that the subwoofers in the subwoofer group will be time-aligned to achieve a flat response.

Too many unknowns for me to put my hand in my wallet really.
 

Ecksbocks

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And there's the question right there! Is it as seamless as it makes out because we've had lots of conflicting info on here.
Nobody has actually come forward with definitive proof that GLM will 100% align two subwoofers as one subwoofer then go on to full integrate them with your mains.
We've only had some text off Genelec (which has still yet to be proven) and lots of assumptions.

That's a whole bucket load of money to spend on a pair of subwoofers which may or may not actually work as well as we think they will.

Yes we've had a statement from Genelec but they don't actually state that the subwoofers in the subwoofer group will be time-aligned to achieve a flat response.

Too many unknowns for me to put my hand in my wallet really.
I have dual 7360s which I am very happy with. The best part is not SPL, but the way they interacts with room and integrates with mains, I'd would say that it couldn't be much better, in my not so optimal room, which is a mayhem of standing waves.

I was also concerned with the way GLM integrates multiple subwoofer, but I'm so happy I went for SAM subs.

I have som experience with various subwoofers and it has always been a compromise, that sounds loud and good for movies and just for some music. With current setup if toggle between bass management on/off I always prefer BM on, no matter what material I play, there is no issues around the crossover point which has always been the case with other systems I have had.

It would take me 30 minutes to try 8 different crossover points including correct phase alignment for each crossover value. This comes in very handy when trying different placements, which I believe has big impact on the outcome. That's just me but I know I would get lost somewhere in the process I it weren't for GLM.

I have this system at home for pleasure, I work as a sound designer for film and I am very familiar with perfectly treated studios, so I have a good idea of how well subwoofers integrates in a system.

I see now that this looks like I'm payed by Genelec, that's not case.



-Oh and Sparky, feel free to send me PM if you have further questions.
 

Ecksbocks

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GLM manages/corrects the sub too, right? Is that different from "bass management" being mentioned here?
I don't believe Bass Management has anything to do with room correction. Genelec have used bass management long before the release of DSP speakers.
 
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And there's the question right there! Is it as seamless as it makes out because we've had lots of conflicting info on here.
Nobody has actually come forward with definitive proof that GLM will 100% align two subwoofers as one subwoofer then go on to full integrate them with your mains.
We've only had some text off Genelec (which has still yet to be proven) and lots of assumptions.

That's a whole bucket load of money to spend on a pair of subwoofers which may or may not actually work as well as we think they will.

Yes we've had a statement from Genelec but they don't actually state that the subwoofers in the subwoofer group will be time-aligned to achieve a flat response.

Too many unknowns for me to put my hand in my wallet really.

It doesn´t require more, everything else needed is already there: individual settings for individual subwoofers and individual main speakers, subs phased to same main speaker, yield optimal result automatically in most cases.

The result may leave room for improvement mostly then, if room is exceptionally bad and/or there is problems in phasing i.e. those multiple subwoofers are drastically different distances from listening position and/or from (that phasing) target main speaker. In those kind of bad/difficult cases no automation can achieve optimal results. Dirac & co are very propably much more baffled in those hard cases than GLM.

So, because very bad room could trick even GLM, it´s acoustical settings editor is always open for manual modifications if user thinks he knows better. As you must already know. We are talking WC/bathroom level -reverberation overhell -tier "acoustics" then, though.

In good or, at least "normal" room, GLM´s automation should handle it OK, no matter how many subwoofers are involved.




What comes to Genelec´s subwoofers SPL-performance, take into account that Genelec subwoofers are built to last. They won´t let user to push them to high distortion, and eventually to thermal suicide. Like SVS, Arendal, etc typical consumer subwoofers. Which resemble a lot overclocking -PC-boys @ 100 °C -running computers. Definitely not sustainable in long run.


Consumer subwoofer vendors often let their products voice coils run on dangerously high peak power levels. Which, when pushed, leads to so called Final Snap, sooner or even sooner. This "let it burn, don´t give a shit" -attitude is opposite to Genelec´s sustainability, longetivity and absolute reliability -way of making their products.


Every time Genelec sub gives red protection indicator, consumer subwoofer without limiter would have let that power peak pass through to driver, to slowly torching its voice coil. Or to exceed its amplifiers safe thermal limits - the other typical factor home subwoofer vendors don´t give a damn. This may look bad in YouTube -quick review style of looking audio gear "subwoofer gave me a limiter, LOL", but experienced real audio people should understand the reason behind this.

So if you want the subwoofers, which last soundtracks nuclear explosions , mothership fly-overs or whatever you decide to feed them, for years to come, forget those Arendal/SVS etc. "overclocking" -crap, and rely on Genelec. Especially on subwoofers, they are under the most stress on loudspeaker system and as such most easily overloaded.
 
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Ecksbocks

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I don't think this is the case, one has to choose and set the crossover manually. Or did I misunderstood that one?
Will GLM handle the crossover to the mains (8341’s) in an automated way and in a way that achieves a positive summation at the crossover point.

-Yes, this is part of the automated calibration process.
 

Ecksbocks

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The answer to OPs question that if GLM treats multiple subwoofers as one bass unit is NO, it doesn't.

I thought that was dealbreaker, but it wasn't (in my case should add).

I believe, without any experience of sub optimising software, that the simple EQ, phase alignment that GLM provides and multiple subwoofers is what makes the difference here. That's just my guess though.
 

Sancus

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There's nothing wrong with Genelec's solution for 1 subwoofer, it's fine. In fact because they use a 48dB/oct crossover it's probably better than an AVR crossover generally speaking. The cost/benefit is still poor IMO but if you're not interested in learning a lot about subwoofers and crossovers so you can configure a miniDSP based crossover, then yes, I think Genelec is worth it. The single subwoofer GLM crossover is usually going to be better than an AVR auto-crossover.

For 2+ subs it's definitely not worth it *for me*, especially if you need the larger ones. A 7370(in the US) has a ~$3000 premium compared to an equivalent, good quality 12" ported sub. It doesn't take more than 2 of those before you're in "can buy an entire high-end AVR with DLBC" territory.

However, your room may not need more sophisticated SOTA correction either, that's also something you'd have to determine on your own with measurements. 2 Genelec subs will never be able to fill in nulls or make multiple seats flat the way MSO and DLBC can. Whether or not that matters to you is a judgement call based on how you value your money, time, and what your measurements look like.

If you're trying to make this decision without any measurements and without any interest in learning how crossovers work, I'd say you should probably just get the Genelec subs, yes.
 
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Ecksbocks

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There's nothing wrong with Genelec's solution for 1 subwoofer, it's fine. In fact because they use a 48dB/oct crossover it's probably better than an AVR crossover generally speaking. The cost/benefit is still poor IMO but if you're not interested in learning a lot about subwoofers and crossovers so you can configure a miniDSP based crossover, then yes, I think Genelec is worth it. The single subwoofer GLM crossover is usually going to be better than an AVR auto-crossover.

For 2+ subs it's definitely not worth it *for me*, especially if you need the larger ones. A 7370(in the US) has a ~$3000 premium compared to an equivalent, good quality 12" ported sub. It doesn't take more than 2 of those before you're in "can buy an entire high-end AVR with DLBC" territory.

However, your room may not need more sophisticated SOTA correction either, that's also something you'd have to determine on your own with measurements. 2 Genelec subs will never be able to fill in nulls or make multiple seats flat the way MSO and DLBC can. Whether or not that matters to you is a judgement call based on how you value your money, time, and what your measurements look like.

If you're trying to make this decision without any measurements and without any interest in learning how crossovers work, I'd say you should probably just get the Genelec subs, yes.
I would add that if one just want the subwoofer(s) for movies, any quality subwoofer will do, even if one uses bass management. It's almost impossible to hear the dip at the crossover point one often gets with AVR LP/HP filter in typical movie sound material.

With music listening it is another story.
 

Sancus

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they won´t let user to push them to high distortion, and eventually to thermal suicide. Like SVS, Arendal, etc typical consumer subwoofers. Which resemble a lot overclocking -PC-boys @ 100 °C -running computers. Definitely not sustainable in long run.

This is straight BS, and writing it just damages your credibility, nothing more.

I bought one of the cheapest, crappiest SVS subs in *2008*, an SVS SB12-NSD. 14 years on, it still works the same as when it was new.
 

Trell

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This is straight BS, and writing it just damages your credibility, nothing more.

I bought one of the cheapest, crappiest SVS subs in *2008*, an SVS SB12-NSD. 14 years on, it still works the same as when it was new.
I had the SVS SB12-NSD as well for a decade or so until I bought two SVS SB3000 to replace it. Worked fine when I sold it and the two others are still working fine as well.

Anecdotal evidence, but I think the poster is BS’ing.
 
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This is straight BS, and writing it just damages your credibility, nothing more.

I bought one of the cheapest, crappiest SVS subs in *2008*, an SVS SB12-NSD. 14 years on, it still works the same as when it was new.

Ok, well, so your subs have lasted. Thats great. Without stressing them much, i.e. in family living room / apartment @ hard 80 dB MAX SPL-limit, may I presume?

What I have seen on other users during years, those SVS models have been in amp/driver replacement / going to service / coming from service all the time.

Of course, with good enough luck, one can win even on lottery.
 

Trell

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Ok, well, so your subs have lasted. Thats great. Without stressing them much, i.e. in family living room / apartment @ hard 80 dB MAX SPL-limit, may I presume?

What I have seen on other users during years, those SVS models have been in amp/driver replacement / going to service / coming from service all the time.

Of course, with good enough luck, one can win even on lottery.

You’re not mixing and mastering professionally are you, the intended market for Genelec monitors and subwoofers?

At what SPL do you listen at for hours a day? 80 dB? 90 dB? 100 dB? 110 dB?
 
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Sancus

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I had the SVS SB12-NSD as well for a decade or so until I bought two SVS SB3000 to replace it. Worked fine when I sold it and the two others are still working fine as well.

Anecdotal evidence, but I think the poster is BS’ing.

It's totally anecdotal but I'm not aware of any statistical evidence showing a high failure rate. And I've never seen widespread user complaints about SVS, rather the opposite if anything.

Also, SVS' warranty is 5 years, longer than Genelec's. Arendal has a 5-year warranty for electronics and 10 for anything else. That's WAY longer than Genelec.

If they had failure rate problems these warranties would be very expensive for them, unless they're unfairly denying warranty claims. But I've heard nothing but the opposite. They are well known for very good customer service.

Not to mention, you can buy 3 SVS subs of equal capability to a Genelec for the same price. So even if you had to replace them after 15-20 years instead of 30, who cares? I don't know about you but I'd want a new toy by then anyway :p
 
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Ecksbocks

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Ok, well, so your subs have lasted. Thats great. Without stressing them much, i.e. in family living room / apartment @ hard 80 dB MAX SPL-limit, may I presume?

What I have seen on other users during years, those SVS models have been in amp/driver replacement / going to service / coming from service all the time.

Of course, with good enough luck, one can win even on lottery.
. I work at a post production facility where we have 11 rooms with genelec and they break too.
 
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. I work at a post production facility where we have 11 rooms with genelec and they break too.

Sure, rare occasions / almost mirracles happen sometimes. In hard use, even the best tools may malfunction.
But per one Iisalmi -service gig needing Genelec, there is at least 10 driver/amp -failure SVS´s etc made in China -subwoofers, if usage conditions are the same.

Home subwoofer vendors are counting on fact, that on home environments, subwoofers end up in practice to serve mostly as decorative / nerd trophy -type of items. In apartments / condos and family living rooms, which suit very badly for actual, real loudspeaker listening.
In those environments subwoofers mechanical / thermal workloads stay very low all their lifespan, so vendor can promise generous guarantees (+ moon from the sky) because products failure risk is so low. On those low-SPL / silencer -environments they die most likely to sheer boredom, if at all. That skews their relative failure rate: without real use even bad product can last.

If they accidentally end up to real use though, like studio´s Genelecs or for home user able to real loudspeaker listening under heavy mechanical / thermal workloads, reaper i.e. service calls probably quite soon.
 

Trell

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Sure, rare occasions / almost mirracles happen sometimes. In hard use, even the best tools may malfunction.
But per one Iisalmi -service gig needing Genelec, there is at least 10 driver/amp -failure SVS´s etc made in China -subwoofers, if usage conditions are the same.

Home subwoofer vendors are counting on fact, that on home environments, subwoofers end up in practice to serve mostly as decorative / nerd trophy -type of items. In apartments / condos and family living rooms, which suit very badly for actual, real loudspeaker listening.
In those environments subwoofers mechanical / thermal workloads stay very low all their lifespan, so vendor can promise generous guarantees (+ moon from the sky) because products failure risk is so low. On those low-SPL / silencer -environments they die most likely to sheer boredom, if at all. That skews their relative failure rate: without real use even bad product can last.

If they accidentally end up to real use though, like studio´s Genelecs or for home user able to real loudspeaker listening under heavy mechanical / thermal workloads, reaper i.e. service calls probably quite soon.

Yet again you claim (without evidence) SVS and other consumer subwoofers are mostly used in low output so little failures. How does that differs from pros in studios? You did not reply to my post just above, so I'll repeat it again below:

You’re not mixing and mastering professionally are you, the intended market for Genelec monitors and subwoofers?

At what SPL do you listen at for hours a day? 80 dB? 90 dB? 100 dB? 110 dB?
 
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Yet again you claim (without evidence) SVS and other consumer subwoofers are mostly used in low output so little failures. How does that differs from pros in studios? You did not reply to my post just above, so I'll repeat it again below:

You’re not mixing and mastering professionally are you, the intended market for Genelec monitors and subwoofers?

At what SPL do you listen at for hours a day? 80 dB? 90 dB? 100 dB? 110 dB?

In my view they do have actually quite a LOT failures, albeit they are mostly used only lightly at home.



Studios are professional working places, they don´t (at least they shouln´t) have domestic silencer -factors limiting their SPL-usage:

-angry neighbors

-even angrier family members

and eventually

-the police

demanding to lower that bass thumping immediately.


In best listening times (after 22.00) subwoofers are in total prohibition in apartment/condo -environments.

So, on these domestic usage -premises, subwoofers get away on quite minuscule workloads, and may live long (albeit not happy) lives as decorative furniture.



I´m home user, who values the properties Genelec represents (quality, longetivity, sustainability). I live in apartment, so no real prerequisities for loudspeaker listening. :(
In my listening, peaks of loudest bass-scenes of video soundtracks may tickle that 110 dB. In 2ch music, much less. I can´t achieve that at home on loudspeakers, only on headphones.
 

Trell

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In my view they do have actually quite a LOT failures, albeit they are mostly used only lightly at home.



Studios are professional working places, they don´t (at least they shouln´t) have domestic silencer -factors limiting their SPL-usage:

-angry neighbors

-even angrier family members

and eventually

-the police

demanding to lower that bass thumping immediately.


In best listening times (after 22.00) subwoofers are in total prohibition in apartment/condo -environments.

So, on these domestic usage -premises, subwoofers get away on quite minuscule workloads, and may live long (albeit not happy) lives as decorative furniture.



I´m home user, who values the properties Genelec represents (quality, longetivity, sustainability). I live in apartment, so no real prerequisities for loudspeaker listening. :(
In my listening, peaks of loudest bass-scenes of video soundtracks may tickle that 110 dB. In 2ch music, much less. I can´t achieve that at home on loudspeakers, only on headphones.

I understand that you like Genelec, and I do too (I own two Genelec SAM 2.1 setups), but you do make a number of assumptions and claims about non-Genelec subwoofers and usage that is not supported.
 
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