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Genelec Dual Sub Optimisation

Sancus

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GLM is advanced and robust measuring-AI, outperforms 99% of REW + UMIK -amateurs on machines cold routine: it uses calibrated mic, its measuring routine and measurement interpretation are bullet proof. It wont make stupid, amateurish human errors.

No human errors means in practice: GLM´s mouse hand won´t begin to shake and lower lip to tremble in uncertainty when it tries to google / search from internet forums how other amateurs have set their filters.

So, you should just trust GLM´s judgment. It´s most advanced measuring-AI available. Your job is only place mic properly, run AutoCal and stay away / silent when GLM measures.

Serious question: Do you understand what GLM actually does? Because the above sentences tell me that you don't understand, you just think it's a magic solution that does magic things. It's not. GLM is effective but it mainly just applies simple notch filters to reduce peaks below the transition frequency. It does make some other small adjustments with shelf filters and such sometimes, but it doesn't all-pass phase the way Dirac does(whether that's useful is another story, but it doesn't).

GLM still doesn't appear to have anything like Multi-Sub Optimizer. So it's not "the most advanced measuring-AI available".

I get the feeling you signed up here just to evangelize GLM, which is really silly, it doesn't need that. I appreciate you pointing out the release note, but it does not seem like anything significant HAS been changed at all, so, GLM is still well behind MSO and DLBC in terms of bass management capability.
 
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Sparky

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Serious question: Do you understand what GLM actually does? Because the above sentences tell me that you don't understand, you just think it's a magic solution that does magic things. It's not. GLM is effective but it mainly just applies simple notch filters to reduce peaks below the transition frequency. It does make some other small adjustments with shelf filters and such sometimes, but it doesn't all-pass phase the way Dirac does(whether that's useful is another story, but it doesn't).

GLM still doesn't appear to have anything like Multi-Sub Optimizer. So it's not "the most advanced measuring-AI available".

I get the feeling you signed up here just to evangelize GLM, which is really silly, it doesn't need that. I appreciate you pointing out the release note, but it does not seem like anything significant HAS been changed at all, so, GLM is still well behind MSO and DLBC in terms of bass management capability.
Ah.....bass management.

That's an entirely different subject altogether. You're spot on there. This is where GLM is massively weak and needs to improve.

Anthem ARC has only just got to grips with it properly in recent years and they've been in the room correction game for a long long time.
My Anthem STR preamplifier back in the day struggled with multisub until the latest ARC software release. Think it was called Genesis if I remember rightly.
 

Sancus

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Ah.....bass management.

That's an entirely different subject altogether. You're spot on there. This is where GLM is massively weak and needs to improve.

Anthem ARC has only just got to grips with it properly in recent years and they've been in the room correction game for a long long time.
My Anthem STR preamplifier back in the day struggled with multisub until the latest ARC software release. Think it was called Genesis if I remember rightly.

Yeah, the thing is, as I mentioned above, I'm not even sure if they're working on it. Their primary customers are studios, and pro studios with budgets for Genelec usually have purpose-built rooms with heavy treatment(or even specialized room geometry) designed to smooth out bass. 1 meter of absorption is no problem in a studio, in a home it's much different. So the demand for multi-sub bass smoothing is not really there I don't think.

I hope I'm wrong because I'd love to see GLM become a one stop shop for all room correction needs even for us home users.
 
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I think my love for GLM is not so much that it's some amazing game changing thing. It's simplicity when compared to DIRAC etc etc is what I like most about it.

I found using the likes of DIRAC etc etc a bit of a chore to be honest with too much user interaction which the clouds your judgement.
GLM on the other hand just does a good job and that's that. There's no doubt in what it's doing.
 

Sancus

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I think my love for GLM is not so much that it's some amazing game changing thing. It's simplicity when compared to DIRAC etc etc is what I like most about it.

I found using the likes of DIRAC etc etc a bit of a chore to be honest with too much user interaction which the clouds your judgement.
GLM on the other hand just does a good job and that's that. There's no doubt in what it's doing.

Agreed, GLM actually has a brilliant UI and workflow compared to every other room correction system. It's far more pleasant to use than anything else. That's why I think it would be awesome if it got all the features it needed to be the best in terms of results as well.

And it allows you customization as well if you want it, since you can directly access all the filters it creates, which is not something you can usually do.
 

Doodski

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Agreed, GLM actually has a brilliant UI and workflow compared to every other room correction system. It's far more pleasant to use than anything else. That's why I think it would be awesome if it got all the features it needed to be the best in terms of results as well.

And it allows you customization as well if you want it, since you can directly access all the filters it creates, which is not something you can usually do.
So Genelec has produced the best software DSP package as well as making some of the best speakers around. That's a broad spectrum of in-house skills. Wow!
 
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Sparky

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Agreed, GLM actually has a brilliant UI and workflow compared to every other room correction system. It's far more pleasant to use than anything else. That's why I think it would be awesome if it got all the features it needed to be the best in terms of results as well.

And it allows you customization as well if you want it, since you can directly access all the filters it creates, which is not something you can usually do.
Again I agree totally. It's simplicity is it's key strength. It's a pleasure to use it really is.

Like you, I wish they would see the "gap in the market" as they'd be onto a sure fire winner for the home user.
I'm already all in with Genelec now and I will never own another product.
"The ones" are a phenomenal monitor and, with their continual GLM updates, I know that me as a customer will be looked after for the foreseeable future.
 

tifune

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I hope I'm wrong because I'd love to see GLM become a one stop shop for all room correction needs even for us home users.

Agreed; I'd aslo add, given the price premium vs. just about any other sub on the planet, it doesn't seem like a lot to ask.
 

mkt

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I'd ask Genelec. In my experience they are quick to answer.
 
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Sparky

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I'd ask Genelec. In my experience they are quick to answer.
I've been speaking to Natt at Genelec support recently. He's quick to reply and is a nice guy.
I'll fire an email over tomorrow.
 
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kma100

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GLM manages/corrects the sub too, right? Is that different from "bass management" being mentioned here?
 
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Sparky

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GLM manages/corrects the sub too, right? Is that different from "bass management" being mentioned here?
GLM does do "bass management" of sorts as in, it attempts to flatten the response and apply a crossover.
What we need to determine is if the GLM software will align two subwoofers and apply the necessary delays and crossover etc etc.

Nobody really knows it seems....
 

tifune

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GLM does do "bass management" of sorts as in, it attempts to flatten the response and apply a crossover.
What we need to determine is if the GLM software will align two subwoofers and apply the necessary delays and crossover etc etc.

Nobody really knows it seems....

It will not suggest a crossover for you; I know for sure because the original 4.0 manual stated so and when I asked support how to do it, because I could t find the option, they said it was a typo. Hopefully an accidental reveal? But not as of 4.2.2, you have to choose. It can be global or per monitor.

It will also fix time of flight, but nothing advanced like DLBC mixed phase. You specify a monitor to be paired with each sub (they recommend the closest) and it dials in phase on 1:1 basis
 
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Sparky

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It will not suggest a crossover for you; I know for sure because the original 4.0 manual stated so and when I asked support how to do it, because I could t find the option, they said it was a typo. Hopefully an accidental reveal? But not as of 4.2.2, you have to choose. It can be global or per monitor.

It will also fix time of flight, but nothing advanced like DLBC mixed phase. You specify a monitor to be paired with each sub (they recommend the closest) and it dials in phase on 1:1 basis
Are you using two Genelec subwoofers together as one "dual mono" set up?

As far as I'm aware, as of GLM 4.2, GLM now allows for subwoofers to be placed in a specific group to be fed an identical signal and to be treated as one subwoofer.
Have you tried this and if so, what was the outsome?

I do know that GLM sets a standard crossover of 85hz which can be manually adjusted by the user but the danger in that is that, if you don't measure the response with software (REW) then you're none the wiser as to what the effect of that crossover alteration has on your set up.

I have sent a lengthy email to Natt at Genelec support for more detailed information on this.
 

Zaireeka

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I have sent a lengthy email to Natt at Genelec support for more detailed information on this.

Please let us know the answer, I'm very curious to read it!
 
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Sparky

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Ok guys n gals.

I've had a response direct from Genelec regarding the multiple subwoofer debate..........

"
Hi Mike,

Thank for reaching back!
Our RD has been active today, thank to them this time.
Please find the answer to your question below:

All the use cases you described can be handled with GLM. There are several options how to do it in GLM. As all parameters are visible, it is possible to tune by hand as you have done with your subwoofers.

Will the GLM software see the two subwoofers and treat them as “one subwoofer” if both subwoofers are placed into a subwoofer group.

-Yes. It is possible to use stereo sub or mono sub configuration. It depends on how you route audio to the subwoofers. Subwoofer group ID helps adjusting the level when multiple subwoofer are producing same signal.

If the above is true, will GLM do the necessary gain/level matching as required for the two subwoofers?

-Levels for all monitors and subwoofers are matched by GLM, in subprocess called AutoCal.

Will GLM do the necessary time alignment in milliseconds between the two subwoofers to obtain a positive summation (assuming there are no nulls) of the two subwoofers.

-Every subwoofer is paired with a monitor. Correct phase is automatically measured, found and set for the subwoofer to match the monitor phase at crossover frequency. If you want to force both subwoofers to have same delay compensation, you can adjust the phase setting for each subwoofer. Under the hood, phase = delay.

Will GLM handle the crossover to the mains (8341’s) in an automated way and in a way that achieves a positive summation at the crossover point.

-Yes, this is part of the automated calibration process.

Will GLM treat both the subwoofer group and the monitor group as one “full range” signal when applying the necessary room correction filters.

-Yes.

GLM 4.2 operating manual "7.14 Level-Aligning Multiple Subwoofers Reproducing the Same Signal" explains subwoofer group ID.


Thank you, hope this is useful and feel free to reach back again. ^_^

Best regards/Terveisin,
Natt Na Chiangmai
Genelec Customer Support Team"

You can all read into this as much as you like really but I feel that this is a positive response (on the assumption that I asked the right questions in the first place)!
 

Zaireeka

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Looks like they perfected GLM to the point that manual methods (REW and co) are no longer needed unless you're on a tight budget and want to go with cheaper subs. Impressive!
 
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Serious question: Do you understand what GLM actually does? Because the above sentences tell me that you don't understand, you just think it's a magic solution that does magic things. It's not. GLM is effective but it mainly just applies simple notch filters to reduce peaks below the transition frequency. It does make some other small adjustments with shelf filters and such sometimes, but it doesn't all-pass phase the way Dirac does(whether that's useful is another story, but it doesn't).

GLM still doesn't appear to have anything like Multi-Sub Optimizer. So it's not "the most advanced measuring-AI available".

I get the feeling you signed up here just to evangelize GLM, which is really silly, it doesn't need that. I appreciate you pointing out the release note, but it does not seem like anything significant HAS been changed at all, so, GLM is still well behind MSO and DLBC in terms of bass management capability.

Serious answer: Yes. I do. It measures all connected speakers and sets filters, gains and delays against reference (phase) main speaker.



When those things are done correctly, rest comes naturally as well as it can come. No need for additional tunings.

If user seem to get virtually "better" results with other freeware etc. broke-college-boy -DIY tuning methods, some corners have almost certainly been cut. Or not taken into account at all.

For example, subwoofers seemingly sum better if user puts manual extra delays here and there. But in fact, it may only be so in REW´s looong (500 ms?) time windowing without reference main speaker. Graph line may look nice in REW´s display, but bass (transient) sounds lose their impact (for example), because "optimisation" is based on that (too) long windowing i.e. waiting to sound to fill that half a second from reflections.

Or so, etc, etc. Error possibilities are endless. More so, what more manual and what more external freeware and broke-college-boy -DIY-factors gets involved. Using GLM avoids all that.


GLM has access to latest filter setting algorithms from Genelec-servers, which can be updated any time if there is something to improve. Because calculations are made there, not in some buggy IC´s running in AVRs. If there are bugs, which there often is, one must wait typically months for AVR-vendor to update their firmware.


What comes to Dirac, it is quite permanently "coming in future" -establishment in my opinion. Bragging to do things "next year", which, in practice, it can´t do.


Multi-Sub Optimizer may be good tool for users on budget, who can´t afford all-Genelec system running GLM. As a fully manual broke-college-boy -solution, its in-use -error margins and possibilities are high, though. System running entirely on GLM´s control doesn´t need it in first place.
 
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Ah.....bass management.

That's an entirely different subject altogether. You're spot on there. This is where GLM is massively weak and needs to improve.

Are you joking? Genelec bass management is pretty much second to none.

It applies steep, phase optimised, 48 dB/oct filters in digital domain, to both LP and HP -branches.

AVR´s bass management typically have basic crappy 12 dB/okt HP and 24 dB/oct LP. They are too shallow to begin with, and definitely not optimised with anything. They can cause weird phase-/freq response behavior, which unexperienced user may confuse to room´s doings. Using GLM avoids all that.


GLM´s crossover adjustment range is 50-100 Hz, which is completely sane range for subwoofer cross. It won´t let user to set 25 Hz sub cross, because its downright unsane setting to begin with. Smart device guiding unsmart user to do correct choices, isn´t it just positive?


If some camel boots etc. self made MacGyver -user wants to cross his sub from 5 Hz, or lets say directly from DC, that´s his problem, not GLM´s...
 
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