Genelec 8361A vs 8351B

[Pearljam5000]

[I just realized there are two 8361A vs 8351B threads, so I have moved this post from another thread (of the same title) to this thread (where I had originally intended to post)]

I am now a happy owner of a pair of Genelec 8361A’s, in addition to my Genelec 8351B’s!

And unless plans change, I will likely order a third for a center channel in a month or so, but the third one will likely be taking a quick detour to Amir for testing (unless someone else beats me to it)

Some initial impressions:

• The 8361A are MUCH bigger (and heavier… by about 2x) in-person than I expected. Just seeing them in photos, since all “The Ones” look very similar, it’s hard to get a tangible sense of scale. The 8361A look and feel about twice as big as the 8351’s. I love the size of them, though — just about at the upper limit of what a single average person can carry on their own (using the carry handle straps it is conveniently shipped with attached to the rear mounting bolt sockets).
• Finding stands is a bit more complex than the 8351B. The stand plates that the 8351B iso-pods fit into do not work with the 8361A, since the 8361A iso-pods are much larger. I think the rear mount bolt sockets have the same dimensions on the 8351 and 8361, but this is mostly relevant when wall mounting I think. I don’t think the Genelec 8000-series design stands work with the 8361 (as the 8351 is explicitly mentioned as compatible, but the 8361 is not mentioned), presumably because it would probably not have the right center of gravity even if it was successfully bolted on.
• In terms of sound quality at medium/low levels, I can’t really tell a difference — they sound exactly like the 8351B’s, and that’s a very good thing. If there is a perceptible difference, I probably need a better room to be able to judge (as mine is currently untreated and a bit too lively for my taste).
• Most strikingly, the bass power these are capable of is amazing. Of course they don’t go as deep as my Salon2’s did (nor should they, given cabinet volume differences) but down to 30hz they can effortlessly deliver impact and energy that you can physically feel in your bones and every surface around you. Whether you like loud EDM, or reproducing powerful bass drums in an orchestra, or just explosions in movies — this is a great thing.
• Another practical result of so much bass headroom is I can fearlessly apply a bit more of a deep bass favored tilt (which I prefer), without ever needing to worry about stressing this speaker’s limits.

To paint a picture of how hugely powerful the bass on the 8361’s is, consider this track suggested to me by a friend who really likes EDM music. This track is very bass-heavy. With or without my Genelec subwoofer (crossed at 60hz), I could turn this up to the point that my 8351B’s clipping/limiter light would flash orange, before it was unbearably painfully loud:

In contrast, playing this track via just the pair of 8361A’s alone (and no subwoofer), I am unable to find the 8361’s limit. Meaning, I could turn it up louder and louder to levels beyond anything I’d ever want to experience without earplugs, and I was unable to get the clipping indicator to appear. And never any hint of strain or distortion.

With the 7360 subwoofer enabled along with the 8361’s, the subwoofer starts to give out very quickly (starts clipping) before the 8361 even think about breaking a sweat. Of course this is no big surprise, since this just a 10” ported sub. But I think you’d essentially need something like JTR Captivators or Rythmik FV25HP to produce deep bass matching the midbass dynamics capability of the Genelec 8361A.

If you send one to Amir it'll probably be the first Genelec he approves of SPL and bass output wise

 

[echopraxia]

Here are some size comparison photos:

(As you can see, I’m using some side tables as temporary stands. It actually works pretty well, though the height isn’t ideal. I actually think it would look really cool to have some dark gray or black stone pillars as stands, if I can figure out how to find them or have them made.)

 

[daftcombo]

If you send one to Amir it'll probably be the first Genelec he approves of SPL and bass output wise

Maybe we should donate to help shipping?

 

[echopraxia]

Maybe we should donate to help shipping?

I will probably buy a third 8361A so I have matching LCR speakers

When I do so, I believe I can have it shipped directly to Amir for testing, after which shipping would have to be paid to have it shipped to me (Seattle -> SF Bay Area). I’m not sure who usually covers the latter, but you can ask Amir — I think that’s what ASR donations are for.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Here are some size comparison photos:

View attachment 153903
View attachment 153904

(As you can see, I’m using some side tables as temporary stands. It actually works pretty well, though the height isn’t ideal. I actually think it would look really cool to have some dark gray or black stone pillars as stands, if I can figure out how to find them or have them made.)

The size difference never stop to surprise me(8361A and 8040B)

 

[echopraxia]

The size difference never stop to surprise me(8361A and 8040B)
View attachment 153906

Even bigger difference vs my 8330

 

[daftcombo]

Even bigger difference vs my 8330

Would you be able to tell the 8351/8361 from the 8330 at low volumes?

 

[HooStat]

That is a hefty dude! The comparison with the 8330 kind of looks like a parent holding his/her child on their shoulders.

 

[daftcombo]

[I just realized there are two 8361A vs 8351B threads, so I have moved this post from another thread (of the same title) to this thread (where I had originally intended to post)]

I am now a happy owner of a pair of Genelec 8361A’s, in addition to my Genelec 8351B’s!

And unless plans change, I will likely order a third for a center channel in a month or so, but the third one will likely be taking a quick detour to Amir for testing (unless someone else beats me to it)

Some initial impressions:

• The 8361A are MUCH bigger (and heavier… by about 2x) in-person than I expected. Just seeing them in photos, since all “The Ones” look very similar, it’s hard to get a tangible sense of scale. The 8361A look and feel about twice as big as the 8351’s. I love the size of them, though — just about at the upper limit of what a single average person can carry on their own (using the carry handle straps it is conveniently shipped with attached to the rear mounting bolt sockets).
• Finding stands is a bit more complex than the 8351B. The stand plates that the 8351B iso-pods fit into do not work with the 8361A, since the 8361A iso-pods are much larger. I think the rear mount bolt sockets have the same dimensions on the 8351 and 8361, but this is mostly relevant when wall mounting I think. I don’t think the Genelec 8000-series design stands work with the 8361 (as the 8351 is explicitly mentioned as compatible, but the 8361 is not mentioned), presumably because it would probably not have the right center of gravity even if it was successfully bolted on.
• In terms of sound quality at medium/low levels, I can’t really tell a difference — they sound exactly like the 8351B’s, and that’s a very good thing. If there is a perceptible difference, I probably need a better room to be able to judge (as mine is currently untreated and a bit too lively for my taste).
• Most strikingly, the bass power these are capable of is amazing. Of course they don’t go as deep as my Salon2’s did (nor should they, given cabinet volume differences) but down to 30hz they can effortlessly deliver impact and energy that you can physically feel in your bones and every surface around you. Whether you like loud EDM, or reproducing powerful bass drums in an orchestra, or just explosions in movies — this is a great thing.
• Another practical result of so much bass headroom is I can fearlessly apply a bit more of a deep bass favored tilt (which I prefer), without ever needing to worry about stressing this speaker’s limits.

To paint a picture of how hugely powerful the bass on the 8361’s is, consider this track suggested to me by a friend who really likes EDM music. This track is very bass-heavy. With or without my Genelec subwoofer (crossed at 60hz), I could turn this up to the point that my 8351B’s clipping/limiter light would flash orange, before it was unbearably painfully loud:

In contrast, playing this track via just the pair of 8361A’s alone (and no subwoofer), I am unable to find the 8361’s limit. Meaning, I could turn it up louder and louder to levels beyond anything I’d ever want to experience without earplugs, and I was unable to get the clipping indicator to appear. And never any hint of strain or distortion.

With the 7360 subwoofer enabled along with the 8361’s, the subwoofer starts to give out very quickly (starts clipping) before the 8361 even think about breaking a sweat. Of course this is no big surprise, since this just a 10” ported sub. But I think you’d essentially need something like JTR Captivators or Rythmik FV25HP to produce deep bass matching the midbass dynamics capability of the Genelec 8361A.

Perhaps the 8351B don't know they are high-passed to the subs, so the clipping light comes in but it won't distort yet.

 

[Sancus]

Perhaps the 8351B don't know they are high-passed to the subs, so the clipping light comes in but it won't distort yet.

That doesn't really make sense, the clipping light is based on the signal they receive plus(perhaps, dunno for sure) some diagnosis of internal temperatures and such.

I would guess if anything it's the 60hz crossover, which is quite low and still in a region where the 8351B may have more limitations. I tried the mentioned track(Recondite - Pour). FWIW, crossed over at 100hz I see no orange lights even going past 120dB which is as loud as I dare in my apartment lol. My SVS SB-12 was clipping like mad almost constantly at this volume. Clearly I need to invest in more sub power.

This also nicely illustrates the massive difference between dbA(safety thresholds) and real, unweighted output on bass-heavy music. And yes, I did wear hearing protection for this.

 

[samysound]

That doesn't really make sense, the clipping light is based on the signal they receive plus(perhaps, dunno for sure) some diagnosis of internal temperatures and such.

I would guess if anything it's the 60hz crossover, which is quite low and still in a region where the 8351B may have more limitations. I tried the mentioned track(Recondite - Pour). FWIW, crossed over at 100hz I see no orange lights even going past 120dB which is as loud as I dare in my apartment lol. My SVS SB-12 was clipping like mad almost constantly at this volume. Clearly I need to invest in more sub power.

This also nicely illustrates the massive difference between dbA(safety thresholds) and real, unweighted output on bass-heavy music. And yes, I did wear hearing protection for this.

maybe there are also some differences in boosts applied by the room correction algorithm his room vs yours?

 

[Pearljam5000]

Even bigger difference vs my 8330

That doesn't really make sense, the clipping light is based on the signal they receive plus(perhaps, dunno for sure) some diagnosis of internal temperatures and such.

I would guess if anything it's the 60hz crossover, which is quite low and still in a region where the 8351B may have more limitations. I tried the mentioned track(Recondite - Pour). FWIW, crossed over at 100hz I see no orange lights even going past 120dB which is as loud as I dare in my apartment lol. My SVS SB-12 was clipping like mad almost constantly at this volume. Clearly I need to invest in more sub power.

This also nicely illustrates the massive difference between dbA(safety thresholds) and real, unweighted output on bass-heavy music. And yes, I did wear hearing protection for this.

How loud can the 8351B get without a sub With that track?

 

[echopraxia]

Would you be able to tell the 8351/8361 from the 8330 at low volumes?

I have compared the 8351B vs 8330A with the same subwoofer to eliminate bass differences, and I can definitely tell the difference. I actually wasn’t expecting it to be that noticeable, but I found that it was. Note that this was on a home office desktop surface (ceramic) in the near-field, so it’s possible that the coaxial benefits are even more pronounced here.

The best I can describe the difference subjectively is just more “clarity” from the 8351B’s vs the 8330A. The mids and treble also sounded a bit smoother, which is very important for me since for reasons I don’t fully understand, my ears are very sensitive to treble spikes (even very high “Q”) from 1khz to 17kh or so, so many speakers that work for others (Revel F206, Focal Aria 926) don’t work for me. With that said, the 8330A treble and clarity etc. is still amazing, the 8351/8351 is just definitely much closer to perfection.

The theoretical differences are pretty obvious, so it’s not surprising I guess: The 8351B is better in every way, better frequency response smoothness and flatness, more consistent off-axis due to being coaxial, and should have lower THD and IMD (and doppler shift?) due to being a 3-way versus a 2-way design.

FWIW I find the Neumann KH310’s to be more close to on par with the 8351B than any of the two-ways from either Genelec or Neumann. If you are looking for a more affordable 8361 or 8351, if you can find a used 8260A or 8250, I’d go for that.

Lastly, I don’t want to overplay the difference. All these speakers are exceptional for their size and price point. I bet at least 90% of people wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a 8330 and 8351 (aside from bass and loudness), but then again >90% of people aren’t audiophiles

 

[echopraxia]

I would guess if anything it's the 60hz crossover, which is quite low and still in a region where the 8351B may have more limitations. I tried the mentioned track(Recondite - Pour). FWIW, crossed over at 100hz I see no orange lights even going past 120dB which is as loud as I dare in my apartment lol. My SVS SB-12 was clipping like mad almost constantly at this volume. Clearly I need to invest in more sub power.

Yep, the track is so bass heavy, that crossover point matters a lot. Unfortunately I’ve never really been able to get subwoofers to sound “right” with a crossover higher than 60 except when using dual stereo subs (essentially just extending the bass of each speaker). I also find it really tough even using stereo subs to get them to blend well with the mains, especially when the crossover is higher. So for this reason I’ve always preferred my mains to reach lower before crossing to subs.

 

[echopraxia]

This also nicely illustrates the massive difference between dbA(safety thresholds) and real, unweighted output on bass-heavy music. And yes, I did wear hearing protection for this.

At one point in the past, I helped my wife host a going-away party for her best friend who was moving out of state, and who likes EDM. In addition to fog machine + DMX laser show, the sound system consisted of two JBL SRX835P’s EQ’ed to be flat down to 30hz, plus a pair of Rythmik F18 subwoofers. I tuned the in-room response with a gradual downward slope where 10hz was +20db or so louder than 10khz.

This system in even a moderately large indoor room has effectively limitless headroom 30hz and up (and still excellent below 30hz thanks to the Rythmik’s), as it can reach instant hearing damage levels easily with its powerful horns (130 dbA), which is also why I EQ’ed the bass louder to satisfy without dangerous treble levels. Many of the guests being accustomed to live EDM shows were extremely pleased that it could play extremely loud, exactly as it is in a live show.

If I remember correctly, my SPL meter was reading somewhere around 125 dbC at peak moments. Switching to dbA mode, I think it was somewhere in the high 90’s dbA. For me, very uncomfortably loud, but according to NIOSH still “safe” for up to 30 minutes of exposure, and according to OSHA “safe” for up to 2 hours of exposure. The guests were all thrilled by the sound, with their reference point being big live shows. Still, it was a bit much for me, and I took breaks upstairs, and found that all the dishes in the cabinets were rattling from the bass, it was so powerful

While the SRX835P were great for this sort of thing, it’s ultimately not high fidelity enough for me (nothing like the Genelecs or Revels or Neumann’s), so I ended up selling them. But it’s still nice to be able to host such things (or even for momentary loud explosions in movies, loud peaks in classical music, etc.), and for that reason I really am loving what the 8361 offers: it’s a fantastic speaker that truly is near-perfect in every way, from SPL to sound quality.

P.S. Yes I know 8351B’s + W371A’s are definitely better, and definitely “the ultimate” system for sure. I just don’t anticipate I’ll be ready for W371A’s for at least a good number of years, until either they come down in price or I succumb to the temptation. Even if I do, I still love the 8361A’s for what they are — an incredible performance in every possible aspect, in an impressively “small“ package relative to what power it is capable of.

 

[Pearljam5000]

At one point in the past, I helped my wife host a going-away party for her best friend who was moving out of state, and who likes EDM. In addition to fog machine + DMX laser show, the sound system consisted of two JBL SRX835P’s EQ’ed to be flat down to 30hz, plus a pair of Rythmik F18 subwoofers. I tuned the in-room response with a gradual downward slope where 10hz was +20db or so louder than 10khz.

This system in even a moderately large indoor room has effectively limitless headroom 30hz and up (and still excellent below 30hz thanks to the Rythmik’s), as it can reach instant hearing damage levels easily with its powerful horns (130 dbA), which is also why I EQ’ed the bass louder to satisfy without dangerous treble levels. Many of the guests being accustomed to live EDM shows were extremely pleased that it could play extremely loud, exactly as it is in a live show.

If I remember correctly, my SPL meter was reading somewhere around 125 dbC at peak moments. Switching to dbA mode, I think it was somewhere in the high 90’s dbA. For me, very uncomfortably loud, but according to NIOSH still “safe” for up to 30 minutes of exposure, and according to OSHA “safe” for up to 2 hours of exposure. The guests were all thrilled by the sound, with their reference point being big live shows. Still, it was a bit much for me, and I took breaks upstairs, and found that all the dishes in the cabinets were rattling from the bass, it was so powerful

While the SRX835P were great for this sort of thing, it’s ultimately not high fidelity enough for me (nothing like the Genelecs or Revels or Neumann’s), so I ended up selling them. But it’s still nice to be able to host such things (or even for momentary loud explosions in movies, loud peaks in classical music, etc.), and for that reason I really am loving what the 8361 offers: it’s a fantastic speaker that truly is near-perfect in every way, from SPL to sound quality.

P.S. Yes I know 8351B’s + W371A’s are definitely better, and definitely “the ultimate” system for sure. I just don’t anticipate I’ll be ready for W371A’s for at least a good number of years, until either they come down in price or I succumb to the temptation. Even if I do, I still love the 8361A’s for what they are — an incredible performance in every possible aspect, in an impressively “small“ package relative to what power it is capable of.

I assume the 8361A get as loud as the Neumann KH420 AND Focal Trio 11 which is impressive because they're gigantic in size in comparison.

 

[echopraxia]

I assume the 8361A get as loud as the Neumann KH420 AND Focal Trio 11 which is impressive because they're gigantic in size in comparison.

Well the good thing is we don’t have to guess, since Sound & Recording has measured all three of these!

In terms of SPL, they’re all really amazing, though in slightly different ways. The Focal has the most deep bass power, while the Genelec and Neumann have more midbass power (which is actually more important if you combine with subwoofers). So purely in terms of SPL I would give 1st place to the Neumann KH420, since not only are the midbass 100-200hz the strongest (though not hugely more than the Genelec 8361A), but it also maintains much higher SPL through the mids and highs than anything else.

Lastly, looking at the off-axis performance of the Focal Trio 11be, it’s not nearly as exceptional as the Genelec or the Neumann. So I actually would not consider the Focal Trio to be in the same league as the Genelec and Neumann (which are pretty much in a class or their own) purely in terms of sound quality.

Indeed I do find the Genelec 8361A to be most impressive of all these, as it offers an incredible performance and features (DSP, all digital, etc) in a relatively small package (though 70lbs per speaker isn’t “small” by any means). However, I am still very curious about the Neumann KH420, since the measurements we do have (which aren’t super high resolution) are so good that I really have no idea whether the 8361A or KH420 would be more likely to win in a blind shootout.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Well the good thing is we don’t have to guess, since Sound & Recording has measured all three of these!

View attachment 154180
View attachment 154181
View attachment 154183

In terms of SPL, they’re all really amazing, though in slightly different ways. The Focal has the most deep bass power, while the Genelec and Neumann have more midbass power (which is actually more important if you combine with subwoofers). So purely in terms of SPL I would give 1st place to the Neumann KH420, since not only are the midbass 100-200hz the strongest (though not hugely more than the Genelec 8361A), but it also maintains much higher SPL through the mids and highs than anything else.

Lastly, looking at the off-axis performance of the Focal Trio 11be, it’s not nearly as exceptional as the Genelec or the Neumann. So I actually would not consider the Focal Trio to be in the same league as the Genelec and Neumann (which are pretty much in a class or their own) purely in terms of sound quality.

Indeed I do find the Genelec 8361A to be most impressive of all these, as it offers an incredible performance and features (DSP, all digital, etc) in a relatively small package (though 70lbs per speaker isn’t “small” by any means). However, I am still very curious about the Neumann KH420, since the measurements we do have (which aren’t super high resolution) are so good that I really have no idea whether the 8361A or KH420 would be more likely to win in a blind shootout.

I'm dying to hear the KH420 and 8361A side by side

 

[Pearljam5000]

I just read on the Genelec forums that you need to sit close to the Ones in order to enjoy the coaxial design benefits, but if you sit far from them they'll sound similar to a "normal" monitor and you'll lose all the advantages of the coaxial design
Is this true or BS?

 

[echopraxia]

I just read on the Genelec forums that you need to sit close to the Ones in order to enjoy the coaxial design benefits, but if you sit far from them they'll sound similar to a "normal" monitor and you'll lose all the advantages of the coaxial design
Is this true or BS?

It depends what they’re implying. If they’re implying that there are better speakers out there for mid-field listening, just because coaxials are exceptional for near-field listening, then that is fundamentally flawed logic. Genelec Ones are arguably the best speakers in the world in almost every dimension, as long as you prefer the medium-wide beam width. (I would argue that Revel and others with ultra-wide beams are better for some kinds of stereo music.) Just because they’re exceptional in near-field in ways non-coaxials can never hope to compete, doesn’t mean they’re not exceptional in mid-field and beyond too

It’s true that coaxial speakers have unique advantages, and one of them is that they sound just as good no matter how far you are from the speaker, or whether or not your ear is aligned with the tweeter height. The latter part has other significant advantages in mid-field listening. It alleviates having to stress out about correct tweeter vs listening position height. It means you can lie down on a couch and listen to music, without a modified spectral balance. It means the floor and ceiling reflections will better match the on-axis sound, leading to better sound quality overall in most rooms at any listening distance.

So Genelec Ones are exceptional in every way, at all distances. Just because most other speakers fall apart at closer listening distances doesn’t mean other speakers are better than Genelec Ones at far distances. The Genelec Ones are uniquely good coaxials because they have all the advantages of coaxials and pretty much none of the disadvantages, due to the way Genelec designed them.

If you learn how to read the Klippel off-axis polar plots, it’ll be pretty obvious where this difference comes from and what it means.