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Genelec 8361A vs 8351B

mkt

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daftcombo

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Actually, he can't move any closer or further away or the motion sensors will be set off.

index.php


(Made for an earlier 8361 thread.)
Which
8351b is the better speaker if you've got the W371. You won't really be using the woofers, so the better dispersion of the 8351 makes it the better speaker.
Wouldn't the 8341 or even 8331 be even better then?
 

echopraxia

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I’m currently also torn on whether to next buy some more Genelec 8351B’s, or go with 8361A’s for my front speakers as I am looking to potentially build out a 5.1 multichannel system of coaxial Genelecs.

I know the “ultimate” best of both worlds is an 8351B + W371A, but due to price I don’t anticipate I’ll be buying any W371’s for quite a while at least.

I know we only have max SPL vs frequency measurements for the 8351A (not B) and the 8361A, but the difference in bass capabilities is large and very impressive performance from the 8361’s.

I suppose what I’m trying to figure out is just how much inferior the 8361A sound quality would be versus the 8351B in practically audible terms. Both are are extremely good of course, but in evaluating the tradoffs it’s hard to judge how noticeable the off-axis differences would be in practice.

Thanks mate!
To my ear the 8351a (remember these are not the current 8351b which as I understand it are significantly improved by comparison to the 8351a) compared to the 8361a seem a little harsher. Also, whilst the 7370 sub was just a huge improvement to the 8351a, I always felt there was just the slightest fraction of delay between the sub and the 8351a - I dunno if this was something I was missing in the GLM set up - I always ran the phase alignment etc. but again, comparing this to the bass on the 8361a, it’s just better integrated - which of course makes sense as there’s much greater Bass coming g from the main speakers rather than a seperate sub on the floor.

Anyway, there are many, many more folks especially on this forum whose descriptions will do them the justice these speakers deserve. All I can say is I feel incredibly privileged and lucky to have them at home to listen to - I would recommend certainly auditioning them if you’re considering speakers around this kind of price point.
This is what tempts me so much towards considering the 8361A — I also have always found that more competent bass from the main speakers always sounds better, even with subwoofers, and even sometimes sounds better than smaller speakers with subs. Amir has commented on similar observations as well with e.g. the Salon2’s, and of course endless other people who notice the same.

I also really like how the 8361’s can maintain >110db (before distorting or limiting) throughout almost the entire audible frequency spectrum below treble. For me, that’s my “should be good enough for any and all purposes“ threshold :)

In the absence of SPL measurements as detailed as we have for the 8351A, I can only assume the 8351B is better but likely not so drastically better as to match the 8361 between 100-500hz, which is quite important since you can’t really solve that with a subwoofer (at least not without work similar in effort to designing a speaker).
 
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richard12511

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I’m currently also torn on whether to next buy some more Genelec 8351B’s, or go with 8361A’s for my front speakers as I am looking to potentially build out a 5.1 multichannel system of coaxial Genelecs.

I know the “ultimate” best of both worlds is an 8351B + W371A, but due to price I don’t anticipate I’ll be buying any W371’s for quite a while at least.

I know we only have max SPL vs frequency measurements for the 8351A (not B) and the 8361A, but the difference in bass capabilities is large and very impressive performance from the 8361’s.

I suppose what I’m trying to figure out is just how much inferior the 8361A sound quality would be versus the 8351B in practically audible terms. Both are are extremely good of course, but in evaluating the tradoffs it’s hard to judge how noticeable the off-axis differences would be in practice.


This is what tempts me so much towards considering the 8361A — I also have always found that more competent bass from the main speakers always sounds better, even with subwoofers, and even sometimes sounds better than smaller speakers with subs. Amir has commented on similar observations as well with e.g. the Salon2’s, and of course endless other people who notice the same.

I also really like how the 8361’s can maintain >110db (before distorting or limiting) throughout almost the entire audible frequency spectrum below treble. For me, that’s my “should be good enough for any and all purposes“ threshold :)

In the absence of SPL measurements as detailed as we have for the 8351A, I can only assume the 8351B is better but likely not so drastically better as to match the 8361 between 100-500hz, which is quite important since you can’t really solve that with a subwoofer (at least not without work similar in effort to designing a speaker).

The 8351b is a bit smoother, but the difference is small(smaller than I remember). I doubt it's very audible. The 8361 should be able to play 5db louder or so without the W371. It also controls directivity a little bit lower. Having seen them side by side, it's a much larger speaker. I'd really love to see detailed NFS measurements of the 8361.
 

nai

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The w371 did not all take over the 8351 or 8361 low-frequency unit, so the actual performance of 8361 + w371 will be quite a bit stronger than 8351 + w371, especially similar to Hans Zimmer.The 8361 alone and 8351 comparison is estimated to be similar, the 8361 low-frequency advantage will be more obvious
 

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@echopraxia if you’re going for 5.1 you’ll have the “1” to handle the bass. The 8351b will play more than loud enough if the lowest bass is handled by a sub. Remember also that such high spl will damage your ears. No joke.

The W371 is just way to expensive to be considered as a realistic add-on for 99% of the people, so you can choose one (or beteer still two) of the other subwoofers from genelec. A 7360 sub will probably output better and more bass than a 8361. And 5 8351b will take up much less space than 5 8361’s. And what if you want to go 7.1? Or 7.1.4? o_O

Furthermore you van use an AV processor and use ANY subwoofer.

There are a lot of great subwoofers out there!
 
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echopraxia

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if you’re going for 5.1 you’ll have the “1” to handle the bass. The 8351b will play more than loud enough if the lowest bass is handled by a sub
A sub will not realistically be able to increase the 200-500hz SPL capabilities. The W371A can, and that’s what makes it unique, but the price is not right for me at this time.

Remember also that such high spl will damage your ears. No joke.
This is entirely untrue for bass frequencies heard for a moderate amount of time, and even for higher frequencies when played a short duration (i.e. as part of transient peaks). You may be thinking of long exposure to higher frequencies for a long time, like EDM concerts. Our sensitivity to hearing damage depends not just on SPL, but frequency and time of exposure. You can refer to some OSHA data for more info here, but for a quick reference look up the difference between A-weighted SPL and C-weighted.

And 5 8351b will take up much less space than 5 8361’s.
I would‘t have five 8361’s, but rather just the front three channels. The surrounds would be my current 8351B’s.

I can definitely see some advantage and simplicity to everything being all 8351B’s. I just need to consider the 100-500hz SPL performance if this is to be my ultimate multichannel music / home theater setup.

There are a lot of great subwoofers out there!
Fully agree that there are great subs out there, but again, keep in mind that the Sound & Recording SPL measurements of the 8351A show that 100-500hz cannot be sustained at 110db like much of the mids can.

In the past ive had subwoofers that could easily reach 110db (C-weighted, so still little to no risk of hearing damage here) in the deep bass frequencies. I ideally want the mains to be able to match this in 100-500hz, where even if your sub can fill in, you almost certainty won’t want it to for directivity/localization reasons.
 
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echopraxia

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Actually it occurs to me that, since I actually have 8351B’s, I could test their 100-500hz performance (since we only have this measured from Sound & Recording for the 8351A).

Does anyone know the best test procedure to measure max SPL limits of a speaker at particular frequencies, in a normal living room?
 
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Pearljam5000

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I’m currently also torn on whether to next buy some more Genelec 8351B’s, or go with 8361A’s for my front speakers as I am looking to potentially build out a 5.1 multichannel system of coaxial Genelecs.

I know the “ultimate” best of both worlds is an 8351B + W371A, but due to price I don’t anticipate I’ll be buying any W371’s for quite a while at least.

I know we only have max SPL vs frequency measurements for the 8351A (not B) and the 8361A, but the difference in bass capabilities is large and very impressive performance from the 8361’s.

I suppose what I’m trying to figure out is just how much inferior the 8361A sound quality would be versus the 8351B in practically audible terms. Both are are extremely good of course, but in evaluating the tradoffs it’s hard to judge how noticeable the off-axis differences would be in practice.


This is what tempts me so much towards considering the 8361A — I also have always found that more competent bass from the main speakers always sounds better, even with subwoofers, and even sometimes sounds better than smaller speakers with subs. Amir has commented on similar observations as well with e.g. the Salon2’s, and of course endless other people who notice the same.

I also really like how the 8361’s can maintain >110db (before distorting or limiting) throughout almost the entire audible frequency spectrum below treble. For me, that’s my “should be good enough for any and all purposes“ threshold :)

In the absence of SPL measurements as detailed as we have for the 8351A, I can only assume the 8351B is better but likely not so drastically better as to match the 8361 between 100-500hz, which is quite important since you can’t really solve that with a subwoofer (at least not without work similar in effort to designing a speaker).
I really doubt they're "inferior" in any way to 8351B as Genelec calls them their "flagship"
Besides there's something satisfying in knowing you have the biggest and most bad a@@ monitors they offer and the price difference is not that big.
It's like choosing between KH310 and KH420 i would definitely go for the biggest I can afford ;)
 

hege

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Does anyone know the best test procedure to measure max SPL limits of a speaker at particular frequencies, in a normal living room?

Just try different sine waves inside the 100-500hz area and raise volume until you see red lights blinking, then you know the limit. ;) GLM mic SPL or REW/UMIK-1 Z/C-weighted will show about the same result.

You can also try playing bandwith limited pink noise from REW generator like 200-400hz.
 

echopraxia

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Just try different sine waves inside the 100-500hz area and raise volume until you see red lights blinking, then you know the limit. ;) GLM mic SPL or REW/UMIK-1 Z/C-weighted will show about the same result.

You can also try playing bandwith limited pink noise from REW generator like 200-400hz.
I suppose there’s no way to really correct for the room boundary effects other than just guesswork?
 

Puddingbuks

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Fully agree that there are great subs out there, but again, keep in mind that the Sound & Recording SPL measurements of the 8351A show that 100-500hz cannot be sustained at 110db like much of the mids can.

In the past ive had subwoofers that could easily reach 110db (C-weighted, so still little to no risk of hearing damage here) in the deep bass frequencies. I ideally want the mains to be able to match this in 100-500hz, where even if your sub can fill in, you almost certainty won’t want it to for directivity/localization reasons.
IMHO this quest for that much SPL is ridiculous. Just plain silly. Measurements are for one speaker, imagine the output of two (+3db), three or even five speakers. Simply not healthy, even in a large room.

Be ready to join the local tinnitus support group in a few years.
 

stevenswall

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IMHO this quest for that much SPL is ridiculous. Just plain silly. Measurements are for one speaker, imagine the output of two (+3db), three or even five speakers. Simply not healthy, even in a large room.

Be ready to join the local tinnitus support group in a few years.

Erin at Erin's Audio Corner actually measured the in room effect of doubling the number of speakers and it's about a 6dB increase. Hypothesis is you are doubling the amount of drivers and also doubling the amount of power applied.

I think the 8361 has figures for 2 meter SPL levels, so you could add 6dB to that for 2 speakers, and then subtract 6dB if you are at 4 meters, etc. (-6dB every time the distance is doubled.)

I agree, the quest for high SPL is not healthy unless you are listening at a large enough distance that it's necessary to reach 115dB bass peaks if desired, and for a lot of people I hear that referenced for bass, with treble peaks being lower.
 
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echopraxia

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Be ready to join the local tinnitus support group in a few years.
Joke’s on you, I’ve had tinnitus since I was a child for as long as I can remember! :D

IMHO this quest for that much SPL is ridiculous. Just plain silly. Measurements are for one speaker, imagine the output of two (+3db), three or even five speakers. Simply not healthy, even in a large room.

Fortunately, this is a space where opinions aren’t necessary; we have a decent scientific understanding of what causes hearing damage in terms of SPL vs frequency vs exposure time.

1631306588296.gif


It certainly is dangerous to pursue 120db mids and treble if your goal is to listen to that average output level over a prolonged period of time, since at 120db db at 1000hz you can only endure 7 seconds continuously before hearing damage occurs.

For bass frequencies, you have to understand that dbA is extremely different from dbC and dbZ. The A-weighted decibel curve essentially describes how these OSHA/NIOSH standard scalar values translate to absolute amplitudes (~dbZ) per frequency.

The A-weighting at 10hz (which many subs achieve) is -70db, at 20hz is -50db, and at 40hz is -35db. If I understand this correctly, this means you can endure a 40hz tone at 115dbZ for about 16 hours before hearing damage occurs.

However you’ll notice that the A-weighting rapidly falls off above the bass frequencies. A 115dbZ signal at 1000hz will damage your hearing within 30 seconds, rather than 16 hours for 40hz. This frequency factor is a huge difference, and one that you cannot ignore.

Now to refer to the 100-200hz range that I’m interested in here, refer to the A-weighting table. The A-weighting at 100hz is -19.1 and at 200hz is -10.8db. This means that a 100hz tone at 115dbZ can be endured for 1-4 hours continuously before hearing damage occurs (depending on whether you go by NIOSH or OSHA standards).

So no, I don’t think the quest for 115dbZ SPL <200hz is ridiculous, and I don’t think it’s a matter of opinion. Now, it is definitely possible that my understanding of the science here is wrong, or even that the science here is itself underestimating the risks.

But let’s suppose the NIOSH and OSHA are each underestimating the risks by two orders of magnitude. In this case, let’s suppose we can’t endure 115dbZ at 200hz for 1 hour but rather for 1 second. I claim that even in this case, I still would want a speaker capable of reproducing these frequencies at these levels without distortion. Perhaps you’ve never listened to orchestral music or other high dynamic range content, but there are many instances where the SPL will spike massively for <1 second. Being able to reproduce this without distortion is important and does notably improve the audio experience, as most who’ve heard system’s capable of this level will attest to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting
https://acousticalengineer.com/a-weighting-table/
 
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Sancus

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I suppose there’s no way to really correct for the room boundary effects other than just guesswork?

Your choices are basically: Buy a Klippel, or do an outdoor ground plane measurement similar to the CEA2010 procedure. :p If you want accuracy, that is.

If you don't need accuracy, I'd argue Genelecs specs are adequate. The "long-term" SPL test uses pink noise, so it's basically a low bass test, and it's 103dB for the 8351B and 109dB for the 8361A. For higher frequencies(100-3khz), the short term SPL max is 113/118dB respectively. Both include half space boundary gain. You effectively confirmed the 113dB spec is pretty realistic in a previous thread.

FWIW, my system uses 8351Bs for fronts and 8341A for surrounds, I typically end up at an average of [email protected] playback level, and have seen LZPeak from REW as high as 110dB(for the system as a whole). No hint of strain let alone any orange lights. I've tried 85dB+ occasionally but not really measured at those levels, still no apparent issues, so I suspect it'd go quite a bit louder even as long as the material isn't super high dynamic range(eg >20 avg-peak).
 

echopraxia

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[I just realized there are two 8361A vs 8351B threads, so I have moved this post from another thread (of the same title) to this thread (where I had originally intended to post)]

I am now a happy owner of a pair of Genelec 8361A’s, in addition to my Genelec 8351B’s!

And unless plans change, I will likely order a third for a center channel in a month or so, but the third one will likely be taking a quick detour to Amir for testing (unless someone else beats me to it) :)

Some initial impressions:
  • The 8361A are MUCH bigger (and heavier… by about 2x) in-person than I expected. Just seeing them in photos, since all “The Ones” look very similar, it’s hard to get a tangible sense of scale. The 8361A look and feel about twice as big as the 8351’s. I love the size of them, though — just about at the upper limit of what a single average person can carry on their own (using the carry handle straps it is conveniently shipped with attached to the rear mounting bolt sockets).
  • Finding stands is a bit more complex than the 8351B. The stand plates that the 8351B iso-pods fit into do not work with the 8361A, since the 8361A iso-pods are much larger. I think the rear mount bolt sockets have the same dimensions on the 8351 and 8361, but this is mostly relevant when wall mounting I think. I don’t think the Genelec 8000-series design stands work with the 8361 (as the 8351 is explicitly mentioned as compatible, but the 8361 is not mentioned), presumably because it would probably not have the right center of gravity even if it was successfully bolted on.
  • In terms of sound quality at medium/low levels, I can’t really tell a difference — they sound exactly like the 8351B’s, and that’s a very good thing. If there is a perceptible difference, I probably need a better room to be able to judge (as mine is currently untreated and a bit too lively for my taste).
  • Most strikingly, the bass power these are capable of is amazing. Of course they don’t go as deep as my Salon2’s did (nor should they, given cabinet volume differences) but down to 30hz they can effortlessly deliver impact and energy that you can physically feel in your bones and every surface around you. Whether you like loud EDM, or reproducing powerful bass drums in an orchestra, or just explosions in movies — this is a great thing.
  • Another practical result of so much bass headroom is I can fearlessly apply a bit more of a deep bass favored tilt (which I prefer), without ever needing to worry about stressing this speaker’s limits.
To paint a picture of how hugely powerful the bass on the 8361’s is, consider this track suggested to me by a friend who really likes EDM music. This track is very bass-heavy. With or without my Genelec subwoofer (crossed at 60hz), I could turn this up to the point that my 8351B’s clipping/limiter light would flash orange, before it was unbearably painfully loud:


In contrast, playing this track via just the pair of 8361A’s alone (and no subwoofer), I am unable to find the 8361’s limit. Meaning, I could turn it up louder and louder to levels beyond anything I’d ever want to experience without earplugs, and I was unable to get the clipping indicator to appear. And never any hint of strain or distortion.

With the 7360 subwoofer enabled along with the 8361’s, the subwoofer starts to give out very quickly (starts clipping) before the 8361 even think about breaking a sweat. Of course this is no big surprise, since this just a 10” ported sub. But I think you’d essentially need something like JTR Captivators or Rythmik FV25HP to produce deep bass matching the midbass dynamics capability of the Genelec 8361A.
 
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stevenswall

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I could turn this up to the point that my 8351B’s clipping/limiter light would flash orange, before it was unbearably painfully loud:


In contrast, playing this track via just the pair of 8361A’s alone (and no subwoofer), I am unable to find the 8361’s limit.

How far away are you listening? I have a pair of 8260 monitors about 8 feet away from me in a 12*17 foot room... I can get them to clip a bit during parts of interstellar if I turn the volume up enough to hear the voices clearly. Sounds like they achieved what they set out to do with SPL on the successor to the 8260 model.

Sounds like you need a bigger sub though! The 7271 is evenly matched with the 8260 when I have a bit of a tilt, and it roughly equivalent to the 15" 7380 woofer... If the 8361 is going even louder without clipping, the 10" woofer in the 7360 is going to have a real hard time keeping up!
 

echopraxia

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How far away are you listening? I have a pair of 8260 monitors about 8 feet away from me in a 12*17 foot room... I can get them to clip a bit during parts of interstellar if I turn the volume up enough to hear the voices clearly. Sounds like they achieved what they set out to do with SPL on the successor to the 8260 model.

Sounds like you need a bigger sub though! The 7271 is evenly matched with the 8260 when I have a bit of a tilt, and it roughly equivalent to the 15" 7380 woofer... If the 8361 is going even louder without clipping, the 10" woofer in the 7360 is going to have a real hard time keeping up!
About 8 feet away as well. I believe Genelec has stated they intentionally designed the 8361’s default bass extension to favor greater SPL headroom at the expense of bass extension (30hz vs 23hz), because a common complaint of the 8260 was that deep bass content would sometimes hit the limiter when played really loudly (and playing really loudly is usually the point of a monitor like this).

I think the only real difference is the default DSP calibration. Edit: Nevermind, I am seeing the 8260 bass power specs quote 150W, while Genelec specs show the 8361 has 700W, so I suppose that could give quite a bit of edge to the 8361. And of course every aspect of the woofers are redesigned, and probably improved.

If you look at the SPL vs frequency plots of the 8361A and consider the bass roll-off:

1631889394228.png

1631889418777.png


What this shows is that you can pretty much feed these speakers full spectrum content, and they’ll be able to play it at 110db from 50hz to 3khz with less than 3-10% distortion (and without the limiter ever engaging of course), and below 50hz you’ll just have the bass roll-off (-6db at 30hz) just enough so none of those frequencies presents an unequal burden. In other words, the bass roll-off coincides naturally with the SPL capability roll off, such that any content with full intensity bass will not run into undue clipping from bass, ever (up to 110db for 50hz and above, at least). Pretty amazing, and seems to be a perfect tuning when the goal is a speaker which (without any bass management) can play just about anything you feed it extremely loudly without any problems.

This also means a subwoofer to complement a pair of 8361’s would need to be capable of 116db, or two subwoofers capable of 110db. That certainly is way beyond the capabilities of my little Genelec subwoofer at the moment :)
 
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Tonygeno

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[I just realized there are two 8361A vs 8351B threads, so I have moved this post from another thread (of the same title) to this thread (where I had originally intended to post)]

  • Finding stands is a bit more complex than the 8351B. The stand plates that the 8351B iso-pods fit into do not work with the 8361A, since the 8361A iso-pods are much larger. I think the rear mount bolt sockets have the same dimensions on the 8351 and 8361, but this is mostly relevant when wall mounting I think. I don’t think the Genelec 8000-series design stands work with the 8361 (as the 8351 is explicitly mentioned as compatible, but the 8361 is not mentioned), presumably because it would probably not have the right center of gravity even if it was successfully bolted on.
Genelec makes stand plates for the 8361/8260. The stand that works with them is S360-415B. Very heavy duty, adjustable and work great with the 8361.
 
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