Genelec 8361A Review (Powered Monitor)

[BoredErica]

That's a big reason(1 of 2) why the Salon2 projects a much larger image. One of the biggest reasons/goals for the fully point source design is to get that center image as small and tight as possible. Many people enjoy that(myself included) goal, but some like Amir(and Toole I believe) see that goal as detrimental.

See Amir's comments in the Triangle tower review where he compares it to the much better measuring Revel bookshelf. Despite the tonality being worse, he prefers the Triangle tower because its drivers are spread out more in vertical space, creating a more diffuse image.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm under the impression that sound comes out of the two vents at the top and bottom? If so then how are Genelec coaxials true point source if sound is coming out at 3 different spots?

 

[thewas]

View attachment 171033
Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm under the impression that sound comes out of the two vents at the top and bottom? If so then how are Genelec coaxials true point source if sound is coming out at 3 different spots?

The wavelengths in the bass region are so large (quite larger than the distance of the slots) that its still acts as a point source, same as the coaxial middriver is not just one point.

 

[richard12511]

You insist on comparing live sound to a recording, they are completely different, I suspect you are for the first time actually hearing exactly what the recording sounds like and you don’t like it.
Keith

That's assuming he ever actually had the 8361 at all . It's easy to make accounts and make up anecdotes on the internet to promote an anti-measurement agenda.

Hopefully he really did, I'm a naïve and trusting person by nature.

 

[richard12511]

I have never seen any B&W speakers in any studio, except once at Abbey Road where one was being used to keep a door open.
Keith

Apparently, a lot of classical music studios really are using B&W 800 series speakers as monitors, so it does make sense that those would recordings would sound better on those speakers. Circle of confusion in action.

 

[richard12511]

Thanks for taking the time to compare. If you can never prefer the sound reproduction of headphones over loudspeakers, this isn't exactly a fair comparison.

Based on my individual preferences, I agree it's definitely not a fair comparison. I prefer most good speakers over the best headphone. That said, the 800 with boosted bas(via EQ) is still the best headphone I've ever heard(I really want to hear the Stealth). Part of the reason I love the 800 so much is because it comes closer to any other headphone I've heard of reproducing an out of head(loudspeaker like) soundstage.

 

[AudioJester]

That's a big reason(1 of 2) why the Salon2 projects a much larger image. One of the biggest reasons/goals for the fully point source design is to get that center image as small and tight as possible. Many people enjoy that(myself included) goal, but some like Amir(and Toole I believe) see that goal as detrimental.

See Amir's comments in the Triangle tower review where he compares it to the much better measuring Revel bookshelf. Despite the tonality being worse, he prefers the Triangle tower because its drivers are spread out more in vertical space, creating a more diffuse image.

But Amir also dislikes the Linkwitz design speakers - Iam paraphrasing him here - because he finds them too diffuse.

So is their a goldilocks zone of diffusness? Is it individual preference? What we are familiar with? Or is there a measurable target?

 

[richard12511]

You need to look harder and quit bashing product lines that don’t share the same design philosophy as the ones you carry in your shop. You also might want to observe how other vendors here on ASR are very graceful and respectful of competing products and manufacturers.

(But if you feel the need to disrespect your competitors because your business is struggling financially, I can understand that.)

I do think it's possible that there are targets out there that were missed by the NRC and Harman research. I just wish companies targeting these other responses would show that in some way. Aesthetically, B&W 800 series are my favorite speaker(my dream speaker 8 years ago); if they published real statistics showing that people preferred the response of their speakers under blind conditions, I would probably buy them.

From looking at the data, it seems to me that B&W doesn't really care all that much about frequency response and dispersion, as all of their speaker lines (600, 700, 800) tend to differ substantially in that regard. It seems to me that they tend to value more (lack of)cabinet vibration and driver distortion. If they have real data to show me that those factors were more important than frequency response and dispersion, I want to see that. I'd have a hard time turning away from their speakers at that point.

 

[richard12511]

Thank you for the report that you like genelecs on classical music and that you actually listen to classical music and piano on them. You are the first person here who I have seen say they are classical listeners and that they actually listen regularly to the genelec Ones and that they like the speakers. Pianomwas problematic for me, but violins were the biggest issues for me. I do appreciate your report of your experience, and can only say that we like different presentations. I tried different curves, particularly cutting high frequencies, but never came around to the speakers. As I said earlier, maybe it’s at least partly the dispersion, but, for whatever reason, they didnt sound like music to me.

I also listen to classical music daily, and the Genelec 8351s are the best speakers I've heard for that genre so far. I've got 10 or so other speaker brands here, ranging from $100 to $20,000+, and on average, the Genelecs sound the most real.

 

[richard12511]

This is true, if the majority of your listened recordings were mastered on non-equalised B&W loudspeakers than the same(! - as they quite vary between models and series) B&W would be the most neutral reproduction device as the only "original" reference of the artificial product called recording is what the mixing and mastering engineers heard during its creation. On the other hand this possibility is rather rare and continues the audio circle of confusion and also is not very practical, more practical it is to use a neutral loudspeaker and tune it for such "circle of confusion different recordings" individually with EQs and tone controls like Toole writes instead of having dozens of different loudspeakers at home, even more since for most recordings we don't know with which monitors they were mastered with. Also I would be very interested to know how many of the studios that use B&W leave their recessed presence region and enhanced highs though fully uncorrected, but I don't think we will ever find out.

This is (imo) a good point, and comes down to "the wisdom of crowds". Some recordings will be mixed too bright, and thus sound better on bright speakers. Some recordings will be mixed too dark, and thus sound most real on warmer speakers. However, on average, the "wisdom of crowds" should ensure that the most consistent way to get the best and most accurate sound will be on neutral speakers. This we be even more true given that most studios are EQing their speakers towards a neutral response.

So, while a violin on a certain recording may sound less accurate on a neutral speaker, that just means the recording is not accurate. On average, the violin will sound most real on average speaker like the 8361A.


That said, I suppose it's possible that a majority(more than 50%) of studios mix on un-equalized B&W 800 D speakers. That would certainly change things, but I find that unlikely.

 

[richard12511]

View attachment 171033
Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm under the impression that sound comes out of the two vents at the top and bottom? If so then how are Genelec coaxials true point source if sound is coming out at 3 different spots?

Because the two points that the bass are emanating from are equidistant the tweeter/mid, combined with the fact that the wavelengths for those bass frequencies are very large.

 

[tktran303]

Soinorama is great; and better than a single on axis response. But it ain’t everything!

Any questions?

Go do your homework:

Reference:

Class dismissed.

 

[Vastman]

Also, the 11dB output jump over the 8351 is super nice. I had no idea it was that huge. The 8351 only has a 3dB edge over the 8341. Percentage wise, the price jump from 8351 to 8361 is actually smaller.

Sweetwater Genelec comparison tables are all screwed up...I've complained about this but so far, no change

 

[RobL]

This is (imo) a good point, and comes down to "the wisdom of crowds". Some recordings will be mixed too bright, and thus sound better on bright speakers. Some recordings will be mixed too dark, and thus sound most real on warmer speakers. However, on average, the "wisdom of crowds" should ensure that the most consistent way to get the best and most accurate sound will be on neutral speakers. This we be even more true given that most studios are EQing their speakers towards a neutral response.

So, while a violin on a certain recording may sound less accurate on a neutral speaker, that just means the recording is not accurate. On average, the violin will sound most real on average speaker like the 8361A.


That said, I suppose it's possible that a majority(more than 50%) of studios mix on un-equalized B&W 800 D speakers. That would certainly change things, but I find that unlikely.

Just nit-picking but wouldn’t mixing on dark speakers cause the recording to sound very bright on bright speakers, and mixing on bright speakers cause the recording to sound very dark on warm speakers? Sorry

 

[Tonygeno]

Just nit-picking but wouldn’t mixing on dark speakers cause the recording to sound very bright on bright speakers, and mixing on bright speakers cause the recording to sound very dark on warm speakers? Sorry

Provided they knew what the hell the real thing sounded like. We are assuming that the mixers are "tailoring" the mix to compensate for the speakers' frequency response. Do we know that's how classical music mixers work?

 

[Newman]

As if mixing ‘bright’ to compensate for known ‘dark’ speakers is in any way as good as mixing ‘right’ on neutral speakers!

 

[Inner Space]

Apparently, a lot of classical music studios really are using B&W 800 series speakers as monitors, so it does make sense that those would recordings would sound better on those speakers. Circle of confusion in action.

It's really time we retired the "circle of confusion" notion. It's decades out of date, and full of misconceptions now. In the real world, no mixing engineer sits back at the end of the day and says, "This mix sounds great on the B&Ws this studio installed, so my work here is done."

Instead, the final result almost certainly won't sound great on the B&Ws, or the Neumanns, or the Genelecs, or the ATCs, or the JBLs, or whatever, but the engineer sits back and says, "My professional educated guess, upon which my reputation and future employment depends, is that overall, this mix will sound good on cheap earbuds, decent IEMs, fashion headphones worn over a beanie, decent headphones, in the car, on the homepod speakers on the kitchen counter, the soundbar under the TV, the cheap stereo, the decent stereo, the audiophile rig, and the speakers in the grocery store ceiling."

Thus there cannot be a "circle", because the end-point is totally undefined now. At best, the chances of a track being consumed on the same speakers it was created on would be a million-to-one coincidence.

All that an engineer needs from a monitor is his own notion of extreme clarity, and that can be found through several different options. The 8361 is an excellent choice (I own 20 of them) but there are others equally serviceable, some of them preferable to different people for different jobs.

All that said, I realize that having been a recording/mixing/mastering engineer makes me, per ASR orthodoxy, a deaf moron, so feel free to ignore.

 

[thewas]

The 8361 is an excellent choice (I own 20 of them)

Could you post a picture of that setup to make us drool?

 

[Inner Space]

Could you post a picture of that setup to make us drool?

They're in 4 post suites in two locations. Next time I'm there I'll take pictures!

 

[Newman]

It's really time we retired the "circle of confusion" notion. It's decades out of date, and full of misconceptions now. In the real world, no mixing engineer sits back at the end of the day and says, "This mix sounds great on the B&Ws this studio installed, so my work here is done."

Yes and no.

The out of date bit, IMO, is the idea that 'the circle' is necessarily broken. Decades ago we could make that claim, because studio monitors were pretty inconsistent in terms of output, and home speakers even more so. Hence there was no real hope of a 'calibrated loop'. Just chance.

But these days it is relatively common to see studios using speakers with extended flat smooth FR and good off-axis behaviour, and very affordable options in the home that can do likewise. By choosing home speakers that fit the pattern, we can confidently anticipate a lot of great sound from our recorded music purchases. A lot more so than before.

As a goal, it's bang-up-to-date. As a baked-on problem, yes it's outdated.

cheers

 

[Pearljam5000]

What system or speakers or monitors is comparable to or better than 8361A @$10K?