Genelec 8361A Review (Powered Monitor)

[richard12511]

Beats me. I never thought the 8351b's were bright. Especially compared to the HD800 and D9200.

For me, they were a bit(not a lot) too bright out of the box. I like the new default filters for GLM 4.1, which lower the treble a bit.

 

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Having mainly differences between inexperienced and experienced listeners, the second group had quite close results and almost all in the end preferred the same loudspeakers and headphones, namely those with the least colorations, the few plus minus dB at both spectrum ends are rather the icing on the cake.

As said gender and country had very few differences but still music end consumers should buy what they like, see also the rental car radio bass/treble anecdotal story, but that was not the topic.

I disagree with how you've used the phrase "very few differences" and "quite close results" to describe the variation in treble and bass preferences across gender, listening experience, and country of residence. In this situation, I'll simply provide the direct quote from Olive and Welti for the sake of clarity.

"3. Younger listeners (15-25 years) on average preferred about 1.6 dB more bass and 0.6 dB more treble in their headphones than the older listeners....The oldest listeners (56+ years) preferred the least amount of bass, and more treble than any other younger age group.
4. Listening experience had a significant effect on the preferred levels of bass and treble. Less experienced listeners tended to prefer higher levels of bass and treble than more experienced listeners...
5. Female listeners preferred about 1 dB less bass and 2 dB less treble in their headphones compared to their male counterparts...
6. The German listeners, on average, preferred slightly less (< 1 dB) bass and treble compared to the listeners from Canada, USA, and China."
S. Olive, and T. Welti, "Factors That Influence Listeners’ Preferred Bass and Treble Levels in Headphones," Paper 9382, (2015 October.)

 

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Rather, we are saying that there are many reasons why old “BBC” style coloration may sound preferable to some people on certain collections of tracks. Part of it may be due to recordings having been mastered to sound good on those colored speakers. While many of us here know that would be indicative of technically bad mastering work, it also doesn’t change the fact that it exists and some people will (rightfully) be unwilling to change their music to match the speaker.

While that may be true, the current discussion is not about an "old, colored" recording, but rather a recent example that @waldo2 provided us (i.e. from 2021). I'm curious if you have access to lossless streaming (like Tidal) and if you'd care to take a listen to it to see if you're hearing what he and I both heard on our Genelecs. @richard12511 curious if you'd be open to the same.

When playing orchestral music in some rooms via just a pair of Genelec’s, there are definitely moments where the spatial and treble quality doesn’t have the same feeling of realism (despite it being quite crisp and clear) as the real thing. In contrast, the Salon2’s never had this problem (rather, they trade off ability to project narrower beam/focused image, but I digress). Lastly, when I finally got my multichannel setup of Genelecs (8361 fronts and 8351 rears), you can with a push of a button switch between fronts only and stereo upmixing to the rears as well.

To me, the unimpressive violin on the Genelec 8351Bs is not related to spatial quality at all. The same Carteto Casals recording played back on the DCA Stealth, Senn HD800sdr, and Denon D9200 headphones all sound far more realistic and enjoyable than on the Genelecs, and no headphones can match the soundstage of the Genelecs.

 

[echopraxia]

While that may be true, the current discussion is not about an "old, colored" recording, but rather a recent example that @waldo2 provided us (i.e. from 2021). I'm curious if you have access to lossless streaming (like Tidal) and if you'd care to take a listen to it to see if you're hearing what he and I both heard on our Genelecs. @richard12511 curious if you'd be open to the same.



To me, the unimpressive violin on the Genelec 8351Bs is not related to spatial quality at all. The same Carteto Casals recording played back on the DCA Stealth, Senn HD800sdr, and Denon D9200 headphones all sound far more realistic and enjoyable than on the Genelecs, and no headphones can match the soundstage of the Genelecs.

I’ll try it out tomorrow. I have Sennheiser HD800S for comparison, and will test on my 8361A’s in stereo and then switch on the rear 8351B’s in various modes and report what I perceive between all of these. I’ll also try on my JBL 705P just because why not.

 

[YSC]

While that may be true, the current discussion is not about an "old, colored" recording, but rather a recent example that @waldo2 provided us (i.e. from 2021). I'm curious if you have access to lossless streaming (like Tidal) and if you'd care to take a listen to it to see if you're hearing what he and I both heard on our Genelecs. @richard12511 curious if you'd be open to the same.



To me, the unimpressive violin on the Genelec 8351Bs is not related to spatial quality at all. The same Carteto Casals recording played back on the DCA Stealth, Senn HD800sdr, and Denon D9200 headphones all sound far more realistic and enjoyable than on the Genelecs, and no headphones can match the soundstage of the Genelecs.

Right, maybe it's personal preference or what, granted that I have no money at all to acquire the 83x1 series of Genelec, when I once a while listen to Tidal with classical materials on my 8030C+7040A setup, the violin by no means sounded unrealistic, too bad I am not in the EU or USA so I will be very unlikely to have a chance to audition with any of you guys on that comparison.

One of the guess is that in Hong Kong our rooms are small, really really small, so the narrower dispersion still result in significant reflected sound maybe the cause?

 

[preload]

I’ll try it out tomorrow. I have Sennheiser HD800S for comparison, and will test on my 8361A’s in stereo and then switch on the rear 8351B’s in various modes and report what I perceive between all of these. I’ll also try on my JBL 705P just because why not.

Oh great, would be curious what you hear.
Also, since you're comparing, would also be curious what you think of
https://tidal.com/browse/track/42687812 (track 1)
on the HD800S vs the 8361A if you'd like to add that on too.

 

[richard12511]

While that may be true, the current discussion is not about an "old, colored" recording, but rather a recent example that @waldo2 provided us (i.e. from 2021). I'm curious if you have access to lossless streaming (like Tidal) and if you'd care to take a listen to it to see if you're hearing what he and I both heard on our Genelecs. @richard12511 curious if you'd be open to the same.



To me, the unimpressive violin on the Genelec 8351Bs is not related to spatial quality at all. The same Carteto Casals recording played back on the DCA Stealth, Senn HD800sdr, and Denon D9200 headphones all sound far more realistic and enjoyable than on the Genelecs, and no headphones can match the soundstage of the Genelecs.

I have Tidal. What am I supposed to listen to?

I also have HD800s I can test with.

 

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I have Tidal. What am supposed to listen to?

I also have HD800s I can test with.

https://tidal.com/browse/album/195710509 Track 3 (String Quartet No.15 in D Minor, K. 421: III. Menuetto - Trio. )
https://tidal.com/browse/track/42687812 Track 1 ("Air" from Orchestral Suite No. 3 in D major)

 

[YSC]

https://tidal.com/browse/album/195710509 Track 3 (String Quartet No.15 in D Minor, K. 421: III. Menuetto - Trio. )
https://tidal.com/browse/track/42687812 Track 1 ("Air" from Orchestral Suite No. 3 in D major)

I don't have the ones or the HD800, but I got a pair of UERR and will try that with my 8030 to see if I can feel one is more realistic or not

 

[stevenswall]

I should have stated I was referring to 2 channel setups only, not HT applications. I don't believe the CCA has native Spotify Connect which is something I'm looking for. The Bluesound Node 2i that i'm using now updates itself without need for any action on my part. If I do get a pair of Genelec speakers I will follow the manufacturer's recommendation to avoid spdif and use the balanced analog outputs from the Matrix X Sabre3, horrid as that may be

It will probably be transparent either way, whether analogue or digital into the Genelec.

The Chromecast Audio shows up in Spotify on iOS, Android, and Web based Spotify clients, as do groups in the Google Home App.

Not sure if that means it's native or not, but I'm not aware of any missing features using Spotify with the Chromecast Audio.

 

[thewas]

I disagree with how you've used the phrase "very few differences" and "quite close results" to describe the variation in treble and bass preferences across gender, listening experience, and country of residence. In this situation, I'll simply provide the direct quote from Olive and Welti for the sake of clarity.

"3. Younger listeners (15-25 years) on average preferred about 1.6 dB more bass and 0.6 dB more treble in their headphones than the older listeners....The oldest listeners (56+ years) preferred the least amount of bass, and more treble than any other younger age group.
4. Listening experience had a significant effect on the preferred levels of bass and treble. Less experienced listeners tended to prefer higher levels of bass and treble than more experienced listeners...
5. Female listeners preferred about 1 dB less bass and 2 dB less treble in their headphones compared to their male counterparts...
6. The German listeners, on average, preferred slightly less (< 1 dB) bass and treble compared to the listeners from Canada, USA, and China."
S. Olive, and T. Welti, "Factors That Influence Listeners’ Preferred Bass and Treble Levels in Headphones," Paper 9382, (2015 October.)

I said that the differences were mainly between ages and level of experience as my reference was the same paper you quote which is also cited in the famous Harman target presentation slides. About the German listeners Olive wrote that more research has to be done to find the reasons. Also it is obvious that such a method of giving some random people to adjust bass and treble levels with a knob has a similar tolerance band (also probably due to partially different music tracks used), as the various studies of him over the years showed:

But this doesn't change the result that according to Olive people choose the same loudspeakers and headphones in their blind tests, namely those with the least audible colorations.

 

[sibi1865]

With regards to shrill sounds, I’ve had the opposite experience of some members on this thread with my KH 420. I’ve been listening to them for a few months now and they’ve provided me with immense enjoyment. I mainly listen to classical music, but I’ve been rediscovering the rest of my collection too, mainly pop, rock and folk rock. The other day, I forced myself to listen to the 25th anniversary CD release of Mike Oldfield’s Tubular Bells again. Previously, I found it unbearable to listen to, like nails on a chalk/blackboard, but with the 420 the screeching has gone. I’ve no idea what’s the reality, but my purchase of the 420 is not one I regret.

 

[YSC]

https://tidal.com/browse/album/195710509 Track 3 (String Quartet No.15 in D Minor, K. 421: III. Menuetto - Trio. )
https://tidal.com/browse/track/42687812 Track 1 ("Air" from Orchestral Suite No. 3 in D major)

Just tried, both sounded very convincing on my 8030 system, no hint of artificial-ish sound on me, and very similar to my UERR experience

 

[mkt]

https://tidal.com/browse/album/195710509 Track 3 (String Quartet No.15 in D Minor, K. 421: III. Menuetto - Trio. )
https://tidal.com/browse/track/42687812 Track 1 ("Air" from Orchestral Suite No. 3 in D major)

Qobuz links
https://open.qobuz.com/track/128504446 (String Quartet No.15 in D Minor, K. 421: III. Menuetto - Trio. )
https://open.qobuz.com/track/22064788 ("Air" from Orchestral Suite No. 3 in D major)

 

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I said that the differences were mainly between ages and level of experience

Thank you for clarifying that what you meant to say was that the bass and treble preferences do vary significantly with age and years of experience (because what I’m pretty sure what I saw you write was “quite close results.”). Also in the interest of making sure Harman research is not misquoted, the treble preference difference related to gender was far greater in magnitude than listener age or years of experience (here, you’re writing that they’re “mainly” between age/experience,” but earlier you did acknowledge this.)

Other than that it sounds like you agree that there is variation in bass and treble preference across the human population.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

I aggre, there a variation in bass/mid/treble preference across the human population, when i used a lot of iems from a friend who have a huge collection of them and very hi end, we both listened those iems in the same condition because is very easy swap with headphones
U18t, se846, w80, w60, kse1200, andromeda, sony ierz1r, lcd i4 and more

We both hearing them similary and we both listen similar stuff, the problem is always we both complain about the right amount of bass mid treble, we both think and listening very similar, but the preference difference is huge

The conclusion was we aggre in everything but have a very different preference FR.

For example he have a strong preference for the mid range and i have a strong preference for the smothness in the FR.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Almost nobody listens to classical or other acoustic music any more.

I mainly listen to classical music.

In any case the best an audio system can do is reproduce the recording as accurately as possible.

The engineers designing it can't second guess the people mixing the recordings.

If the sound is poor on a low distortion system with an even frequency response it is the recording which is poor, or the speaker and/or listener location in the room, not the speaker, IME which brings me back again to the reality that the SQ of recordings vary considerably more than the bits of kit we play them on.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Finally, a couple of people commented here that their musician friends have no interest in audio. That is a well known phenomenon. I would attribute it partly to the fact that few speakers sound like music and musicians know well the sound of the real thing. Sit them down in front of a pair of quads and I think the reaction may be different.

My wife is a professional classical musician. She has sat in front of many good quality HiFi systems over the years. I have set up some old Harbeth monitors for her in our music room where the piano is.
She certainly does notice differences but she is happy listening to stuff on her laptop. It is musianship she is interested in and that does not come from equipment but from the musicians and is easily discernible on low fi equipment, whatever some equipment fans seem to believe...

 

[thewas]

Other than that it sounds like you agree that there is variation in bass and treble preference across the human population.

Yes, there is always the individual factor due to several reasons which some I stated before like habituation and hearing level. Am sure that there will even exist some people which like 6 db extra in the presence region.

I always recommend that music end consumers like the most of us here should chose their loudspeakers finally on individual taste and preference, I only rather disagree when the music producers do so as it continues audio's circle of confusion.

 

[Frank Dernie]

At one of those concerts I never attend.

[added later]: Superb performance of the Faure Piano Quartet with Inon Barnatan, Mischa Amory, Nicholas Cannelakis, and Alexi Kenney.

Relevant to this conversation- A concert hall really does smooth out the strings relative to when my wife plays chamber music in our living room. It’s quite loud and intense and, yes, lots of high frequency sound pressure, if you sit in the room with them.

I find it very noticeable how HF dies away with distance, so the frequency balance of anything, be it my daughter's viola, another daughter's cello and my wife's piano sound much more bright close to than at a typical concert hall "best seat" and even more so up "in the gods" at the Albert Hall, for example.
A lot of the recordings I like are old, recorded simply with a pair of microphones over the conductor's head, for example. Close miked recordings need a lot of manipulation to get a convincing concert hall perspective.

Looking at GLM demo videos (I have been considering Genelecs myself) the balance chosen does seem to be a flat FR at the listening position which is way brighter than the normal downward slope usually recommended.
FWIW