Genelec 8361A Review (Powered Monitor)

[Purité Audio]

Speakers are transducers they do not know what they are playing.
Keith

 

[waldo2]

There is a middle ground, I think, between totally subjective reviews that most of us have learned to disregard, and judging a speaker only on measurements. Both seem necessary to me. it takes people knowledgeable about measurements and engineering, but maybe a few musicians could help with the judgment? Otherwise, you end up with an anti scientific position that is useless because you have made it unfalsifiable.

 

[echopraxia]

it is obviously true that speakers reproduce recordings. Some recordings sound like real music than others. I have spent decades sorting through which recordings I think those are. I prefer recordings that sound like music played on actual instruments In real space. once One has found some of those recordings, that seems like a fair way to judge a speaker. Otherwise, we are left with no standard at all, and little pleasure, which, after all is why we listen to music.

This actually a terrible way to test a speaker, because you’re just picking recordings which might have been (foolishly) mastered to sound good on the same brand of non-neutral, colored speakers you’re used to.

As a result, your collection of reference tracks could simply be those tracks which were mastered specifically to sound good on those speakers. And if those speakers deviate significantly enough from neural, then this necessarily means they will NOT sound good on neutral speakers.

 

[waldo2]

“Speakers are transducers they do not know what they are playing’”

ok, thank you. It’s all clear now.

 

[Purité Audio]

Maybe musicians could insist upon better recordings, now that would be useful.
Keith

 

[echopraxia]

8361 in my room is not a speaker that can convey that sound or be listened to with pleasure by a knowledgeable music lover.

I’m sure you know that there are many knowledgable music lovers among us who love our Genelec’s (and find multichannel Genelec’s capable of reproducing orchestral music more realistically than almost anything else out there).

To imply otherwise (i.e. that we’re just ignorant to what live music really sounds like) is just as condescending (if not more so) than the condescension you interpret when some people point out that many musicians have lacking technical knowledge of speakers.

It could be your room, your recordings, or as I mentioned (more fundamentally) the narrower beam width of the Genelec’s than some other speakers (which in some rooms will be more noticeable than others).

 

[AudioJester]

Yes, and I’m reasonably certain that the difference you’re describing is due to the narrower beam width of the mids/treble. You’ll probably find yourself preferring wider beam speakers like Revel for stereo reproduction of acoustic and other real instrument performances, as do I.

However, you can reproduce similar acoustic realism with Genelecs, you just need a multichannel configuration with stereo upmixing — which of course is not for everyone. But when you do and you toggle back and forth between fronts only and multichannel upmixing, it becomes extremely obvious that what you describe is due to different dispersion patterns.

This is a great explanation. The answers are in the measurements, we just need to be able to interpret correctly. You need the correct speaker for the room and application.

 

[waldo2]

‘This actually a terrible way to test a speaker, because you’re just picking recordings which might have been (foolishly) mastered on the same brand of non-neutral, colored speakers you’re used to.”

except that those recordings also sounded better on the the 8361s than other recordings. try to play a close miked harmonia Mundi recording on the 8361 and you will have to run for your life. Surely, we don’t reject the idea that some recordings are sound more like music than others? Then there is no standard left except for measurement and No way to judge whether they indicate Speakers that sound like music or not. Surely, the music is the final yardstick and engineering is just a tool to get us there.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Tonality is a very subjective thing
People could like "colored" speakers and it will sound musical and warm and closest to the real thing to them
Other will find flat and analytical speakers as the closest to the real thing.
Personally the tonality of Genelecs sounded the closest to the real thing to me, especially with voices and other sounds that are super hard to get right
But that's just my ears and my brain

 

[Inner Space]

Fine measuring loudspeakers simply reproduce the file more accurately, of course you may not enjoy that.

There are no "fine" measuring loudspeakers. Not compared to the needs of the music they are supposed to serve. If a pianist played a long portamento phrase with the same unevenness and roughness of touch even a "fine" speaker imposes, he would be laughed off the stage.

Yet we categorize certain measurements as "fine", partly because they might be less catastrophically inaccurate than others, but mostly because of so-called "preference ratings" decided by test subjects with no demonstrated knowledge whatsoever of how real instruments sound. That's the real circle of confusion.

Then someone like @waldo2 comes along and points this out, and rather than think about the issue ... you attack the messenger. That's why we never get anywhere.

 

[preload]

It's interesting to read this, thanks for taking the time to share. I, too, purchased a Genelec One monitor (the 8351B, which has the same mid/tweet as the 8361A), mostly out of curiosity, since folks here seemed very confident that the measurements predicted a "perfect" speaker with "perfect accuracy" and holy grail sound quality. I've had my pair for quite some time now, and honestly, they're pretty good (somewhat better than the Revel and B&W bookshelfs they replaced), but nothing out of this world. I still prefer my floorstanding B&W speakers in the living room, and this is with the Genelecs paired with a 13" SVS sub and GLM calibration.

I also thought the reproduction of piano and violin were better on my Senn HD800 headphones than the 8351B. I used my usual two violin test tracks, one relatively recent, and one very old:
Anne Akiko Meyers: Air - the Bach album, track 1 (2011)
Arthur Grumiaux BWV1043 Concerto for 2 Violins (1970's)

There's only so much you can tell about how a speaker will sound from eyeballing a series of spinorama measurements. That's what the Olive papers say, and that's what my own experience confirms.

 

[Elkios]

Fine measuring loudspeakers simply reproduce the file more accurately, of course you may not enjoy that.
Keith

Hi Keith are you also a musician?

 

[Elkios]

As I noted in an earlier post on this thread, I have been listening to the 8361s in my room for about a week now. I am definitely not keeping them. Aslo, as noted earlier, I listen primarily to classical music. I am an amateur musician having played in orchestras and chamber groups and also luckily part of a musical family. We have violins, cellos and a piano in the house. I have attended classical music concerts on a regular basis since I was a child. I understand that for many of you here, this is irrelevant, subjective information that gets in the way of appreciating the measurements. I read In this thread somewhere that old people will reject accurate speakers because we (I am in my 50s) are so used to colored sound that neutrality will sound bad. I reject that condescending view. I have listened to and played classical music for decades. I know what a violin sounds like. I have also listened to classical recordings since I was a child. I do not consider myself an audiophile, but have always recognized the importance of audio equipment. I do not need to be told that most classical recordings are poorly engineered. As you might imagine, I know what records I think are beautiful and realistic.

The 8361 before correction with glm was bright, harsh, and synthetic. The sound of a violin is, in my view, one of the most beautiful sounds. I found violins and pianos on the 8361 to actually sound ugly and irritating. Like listening to a child practice violin in a small room. After correction, the bass was definitely improved, but the treble was even worse. So, I knocked down the treble levels. This helped, but still the instruments sounded synthetic and unmusical. It may have something to do with the waveguide dispersion, but I really have no idea. i can say with a fair bit of confidence that many if, not most serious acoustic music listeners, will have trouble with this speaker. The bass is, to be fair, very nice. Cellos and lower notes on pianos were fine. The very low notes were excellent, but from upper mid range on up, I think the speakers are not accurate reproducers of the sound of acoustic instruments to anyrhing approaching the level of bbc style monitors or quad esl speakers.

Anyway, I understand that many here will reject my dislike of the speaker as mere subjectivism. I think there is much confusion about what science is floating around our culture. Observation and description are as important to understanding as measurement and engineering. Robust measurements of speakers are undoubtedly important and even necessary for judging speakers, but it is not sufficient. For too long mainstream audio magazines have relied only on listener reaction. They have pushed snake oil that ASR rightly rejects. Engineering is obviously essential, but it must be combined careful listening by people with knowledge of music. I see very little of that at ASR. How often are pianos, cellos or clarinets mentioned here? As I understand it, Amir’s “subjective” review was based only on listening to one speaker. If that is so, then I think he would be better off just giving us the measurements without trying to tell us if the speaker is good. Does anyone here even listen to classical music or attend classical concerts on a regular basis? Ok, enough, I know. I just wanted to record my observations about my experience with these speakers with classical music. in Sum, I found the speakers to be somewhat shrill and artificial sounding; strings didn’t sound like they do in real life, even on recordings that do much better on other speakers. They will play very, very loud and the bass is great. “There are more things on heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy”.

Yes I attended a Beethoven no 6 last night. I know what you are talking about in regards to the sound of the ones as I recently sold a pair of 8341's I had for 3 years.

 

[KaLam1ty]

Tonality is a very subjective thing
People could like "colored" speakers and it will sound musical and warm and closest to the real thing to them
Other will find flat and analytical speakers as the closest to the real thing.
Personally the tonality of Genelecs sounded the closest to the real thing to me, especially with voices and other sounds that are super hard to get right
But that's just my ears and my brain

To tack on, having a neutral reference point is also important to simply understanding where one's personal preferences are. The Genelecs are low distortion with an incredibly high SPL that they can be EQ'd reasonably to one's taste and knowledge without worry of introducing distortion at an audible level..

The only thing you can't directly change is the dispersion characteristics, which has already been discussed; and that's to go multichannel or a different speaker design.

 

[preload]

The answers are in the measurements, we just need to be able to interpret correctly.

I'm pretty sure this idea comes from group think, and not actual science.

Not even the spinorama provides complete characterization of the perceived sound in a room, and Olive's papers tell us what's possible when computerized analysis interprets the measurements (hint: it's good but nowhere near the level ppl think).

 

[ahofer]

Does anyone here even listen to classical music or attend classical concerts on a regular basis

Lots of people do. I’m not stanning for Genelec here, just the population at ASR. Have a look at the various music threads (what are we listening to; the three or four threads where someone attempted to dis classical music, etc.). For my part, My wife and I are both former musicians, my wife still plays chamber music, in the same room I listen. I live near Lincoln center and attend concerts about once a week, ranging from the big names to Juilliard recitals.

You do make me curious about the Genelecs (I have Harbeths in the LR, but I have the 8010s on my desktop and they sound great). But don’t assume you have more live music experience than everyone here.

“There are more things on heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy”.

Ye Gods, I have objected many times in these pages to that quote used in Audio. Please stop.

 

[dshreter]

As I noted in an earlier post on this thread, I have been listening to the 8361s in my room for about a week now. I am definitely not keeping them.

Your lack of preference for the speaker is beyond reproach, that is after all a personal decision. But I’m not really surprised that a lover of classical instruments doesn’t like a speaker that looks like the Eye of Sauron either.

The speaker is provably accurate though, so I don’t think your credentials mean much beyond the speaker either being poorly setup in your room or that you don’t like accurate speakers. Which is fine. Amir likes a little extra bass. Some people like a BBC dip. Other like their tweeter a little hot.

But you can definitely spend YOUR $10k better elsewhere no matter what the reason is you don’t like them.

 

[dfuller]

‘This actually a terrible way to test a speaker, because you’re just picking recordings which might have been (foolishly) mastered on the same brand of non-neutral, colored speakers you’re used to.”

except that those recordings also sounded better on the the 8361s than other recordings. try to play a close miked harmonia Mundi recording on the 8361 and you will have to run for your life. Surely, we don’t reject the idea that some recordings are sound more like music than others? Then there is no standard left except for measurement and No way to judge whether they indicate Speakers that sound like music or not. Surely, the music is the final yardstick and engineering is just a tool to get us there.

Then what you're hearing is the Genelecs being more accurate to the source material. That's it, that's what's going on. FWIW, I'm largely not a Genelec fan, but they are nothing if not even in terms of FR.

 

[waldo2]

Here’s part of my guess about what’s going on big picture. Almost nobody listens to classical or other acoustic music any more. Electronic, highly processed music has no real sound to compare the sound coming from speakers to. So, in designing new speakers, designers focus on the virtues of electronic rather than acoustic music. That’s what they listen to as well. There is no one paying attention to making speakers sound like acoustic instruments. That’s why the some of the older speaker designs, flawed as they are, sound better for classical music than newer ones; they were designed for listeners who mostly no longer exist.

 

[ahofer]

I was contemplating offering to buy your 8361s, but I’m slightly worried there’s something wrong with them.