Genelec 8361A Review (Powered Monitor)

[richard12511]

True, it would be magic if 2 way 320cm^2 woofer area could match 3 way ~560cm^2 woofer area. On the upside when you buy M1 instead of 8361A you are left with 4000€ for subwoofers... or a lot of albums and quality alcohol.

Indeed. They would be fantastic with subs. Definitely SOTA.

Looking at that waveguide, it's actually surprising that it generates such a wide beam(140 degrees).

Another great option is the Mesanovic RTM10

 

[tktran303]

@amirm you mentioned the Salon 2s project a larger image than these. Are the dynamics comparable to the Salon 2s?

No way.
Salon 2-Quad 8” bass drivers; per speaker.

No replacement for displacement.

 

[dshreter]

No way.
Salon 2-Quad 8” bass drivers; per speaker.

No replacement for displacement.

It’s funny because I thought there was no replacement for a digital active crossover

 

[richard12511]

No way.
Salon 2-Quad 8” bass drivers; per speaker.

No replacement for displacement.

I'm not entirely sure the difference will be that big.

Salon2 has 3 8" woofers.
8361 has 2 8.5"? woofers.

Salon2 is -3 at 23Hz
8361 is -6 at 30Hz

That extra extension(not insignificant) is gonna eat up a lot of the Salon2's headroom. I actually wouldn't be that surprised if the Genelec could play louder, given that it limits the extension. Just a guess, but I'm guessing the Genelecs woofers are probably also more advanced(just based on the year they were made), and probably more similar to the F328Be's woofers. The F328Be, with it's 91dB efficiency and 35Hz -3dB would be an easier horse to pick.

I'm not sure what "Peak SPL", "Short term" and "Long term max" means, but Genelec specs the 8361 at 124dB, 118dB, and 109dB, respectively. Given that the Salon2 is 86dB sensitive, it seems like it would take an almost impossible amount of power(does any wall even give that much?) to reach those SPLs. How much power would it take for the Salon2 to reach 124dB, 118dB, and 109dB at 1m?

 

[tktran303]

It’s funny because I thought there was no replacement for a digital active crossover

A digital active crossover allows you to smooth out all the lumps and bumps in the frequency response, but doesn't allow more dynamic range or lower distortion.

 

[tktran303]

I'm not entirely sure the difference will be that big.

Salon2 is 3 8" woofers.
8361is 2 8.5"? drivers.

Salon2 is -3 at 23Hz
8361 is -6 at 30Hz

That extra extension(not insignificant) is gonna eat up a lot of the Salon2's headroom. I actually wouldn't be that surprised if the Genelec could play louder, given that it limits the extension. Just a guess, but I'm guessing the Genelecs woofers are probably also more advanced(just based on the year they were made), and probably more similar to the F328Be's woofers. The F328Be, with it's 91dB efficiency and 35Hz -3dB would almost certainly beat the 8361 in an SPL contest.

I'm not sure what "Peak SPL", "Short term" and "Long term max" means, but Genelec specs the 8361 at 124dB, 118dB, and 109dB, respectively. Given that the Salon2 is 86dB sensitive, it seems like it would take an almost impossible amount of power(does any wall even give that much?) to reach those SPLs. How much power would it take for the Salon2 to reach 124dB, 118dB, and 109dB at 1m?

Sorry my bad, THREE 8" woofers.

Yes it could be much closer.

Genelec specify:
Peak SPL
Maximum peak SPL output per pair on top of console at 1 m with music material.
Short term max SPL
Maximum short term sine wave SPL output at 1 m on axis in half space, averaged as specified (from 100 Hz to 3 kHz).
Long term max SPL
Maximum long term RMS acoustic output in the same conditions with IEC weighted noise (limited by driver protection circuit) at 1 m.

Bold is inserted by me, to emphasise factors that affect SPL.

Genelec engineers are clever, and cost conscious- t they don't use state of the art transducers or amplifiers (again, ask @Ilkka Rissanen based on his subwoofer tests) but use clever implementation of good enough. It all depends on the drivers themselves.
At the low end dynamic limits are directly related to the amount of air displacement. This is called the displacement limited SPL. It doesn't matter how much power you put into the speaker, 100W or 2KW, the cones just cannot move anymore past their suspension limits. So Genelec's 15" woofers are always going to play cleaner and louder below the displacement limited frequency than a their ovoid 8" woofer.

Anyway, amirm's data at 106dB is very instructive- the amps are already clipping and the top end is shelved down about 10dB, and the sub-bass (50Hz or lower) distortion is already at ~-14dB; which is about 20% distortion.

So could you crank it up some more to get to 109dB? Probably, but you lose a bit more as well. In general peak SPL refers to instantaneous peaks, which may be possible around 1Khz, but only for fractions of a second eg. 200-500ms, attack phase of a pair of crash cymbals.

The Salon 2 is getting a bit on (about 12 years old) and 8" drivers of that vintage have about 7-9mm one way, probably.

86.4dB/2.83V into 4 ohm = 2W
96.4dB = 20W
106.4dB = 200W

SoundStage Hifi showed the Salon 2 tweeter was just starting to show mild signs of compression of about 2dB loss, when tested at 95dB compared to baseline (70dB), so the dynamic limits at the top end are probably around a similar ballpark to the 8361.

We all dream the day at amirm posts his 86dB, 96dB and 106dB distortion tests on his Salon 2 and put us out of our misery and stop with our SWAG (scientific wild arse guess)

 

[dshreter]

A digital active crossover allows you to smooth out all the lumps and bumps in the frequency response, but doesn't allow more dynamic range or lower distortion.

I should rephrase, a digital active crossover is A (not the) replacement for displacement. It does make it possible to extend the linear frequency response from a driver that would otherwise not be so well behaved or extended, and is responsible for the Genelec’s relatively small size

 

[amirm]

@amirm you mentioned the Salon 2s project a larger image than these. Are the dynamics comparable to the Salon 2s?

I didn't have an opportunity to do a direct AB comparison. I know that I am always shocked how much better my Salon 2s are in that respect after testing a bunch of speakers. I got the same feeling when testing the 8361.

 

[a|F]

The scores don't include power handling or output. However, this tends to make the "with sub" score extra misleading IMO, because it strongly implies you can just add a sub to a smaller speaker and it will perform the same as a larger one. This is obviously false since there is still a big difference above the sub crossover, and while I do think larger bookshelves(heck, the 8361A IS a large bookshelf) definitely compete with floorstanders with subs, speakers with 5-6" woofers or smaller really really suffer in mid-bass and midrange output to a degree that makes for an obvious and audible flaw at ~75-80dB(avg) listening levels.

So yeah, the score comes with caveats, and the "with sub" scores come with even more caveats. They are just meant to make bucket-sorting of hundreds of speaker reviews even possible, not to decide between somewhat-different-but-very-good speakers.

Incidentally, the first 328Be score/measurements were wrong. The updated one is 6.5/7.8 vs 5.9/8.2 for the M105. With scores really close like those, where one speaker has far more output and an additional way, and the other has a very small woofer, the correct conclusion is that the larger speaker will be audibly better.

This is the reason I struggle to believe the 8341 with subs will compete with my F208s and subs. Woofage matters.

 

[Sancus]

The F328Be vs 8361A distortion graph clearly shows that the 328Be performs significantly better below 200hz. Above that it's comparable although the 8361A has elevated 2nd harmonic in this area. However, that shows up in other speakers as well and doesn't seem to correlate very well with audible issues. Additionally, Genelec's midrange appears to outperform the 328Be starting at around 500hz.

My guess is that you need the W371A for the 8361A to resoundingly beat the multi-8" driver floorstanders. Though, like most Genelecs, a sub crossed over at 100hz would give you as much as 5-10dB additional output, and that would probably be enough that it would be very hard to tell.

Can't say about the Salon2 since we have no measurements for it so it's pure speculation!

 

[a|F]

I didn't have an opportunity to do a direct AB comparison. I know that I am always shocked how much better my Salon 2s are in that respect after testing a bunch of speakers. I got the same feeling when testing the 8361.

Which amp is driving your Salons?

 

[richard12511]

Sorry my bad, THREE 8" woofers.

Yes it could be much closer.

Genelec are very smart they don't use state of the art transducers, (again, ask @Ilkka Rissanen based on his subwoofer tests) but clever implementation.

I think you kinda misunderstand what Ilka is actually saying. Genelec use the best drivers available for the problem they're trying to solve. His point was that they don't use expensive(beryllium, diamond, etc.) drivers for the sake of using expensive drivers. They use the best purpose fit drivers they can, even if that means using cheaper paper woofers or cheaper aluminum tweeters. The woofers in the Ones are custom made by Genelec themselves and very high quality.

But it all depends on the drivers themselves. At the low end dynamic limits are directly related to the amount of air displacement.

You're correct that there is no replacement for displacement, but the woofer size edge isn't all that big, and you're forgetting one part of the triangle(extension). We're ultimately talking 3 8" woofers against 2 8.5" woofers, with the major caveat that the 3 8's have to also dig way deeper(23Hz -3dB vs 30Hz -6dB ). Is it possible that you're underestimating how hard that extra extension is to achieve? That's a big difference in extension. There is a large cabinet size difference, though.

This is called the displacement limited SPL. It doesn't matter how much power you put into the speaker, 100W or 2KW, the cones just cannot move anymore past the suspension limits

You're kinda missing my point here. In this scenario, I'm thinking both speakers are limited by power, not cones/drivers. 8361 is limited by the amplifiers in the case. With the Salon2, I'm guessing it's most likely going to be limited by available amplifier power(or wall socket power).

The Salon 2 is getting a bit on (about 12 years old) and 8" drivers of that vintage have about 6.5-9mm travel, at BEST.

86.4dB/2.83V into 4 ohm = 2W
96.4dB = 20W
106.4dB = 200W

This is more along the lines of what I was asking about. We know?(I'm honestly not too sure what their specs mean) that the 8361 can hit peaks of 124dB and do 118dB for a "short" period. Plugging in the numbers, the Salon2 would need 1600? watts to reach 118dB, and 6300? watts to reach 124dB peaks. How many Salon2 owners have amps that can deliver that much power(even if it can take it). I'm actually starting to think the 8361 probably gets louder on average. Perhaps some Salon2 owners with $100,000 monster amps can match or beat it?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I really think the Salon2s significantly deeper extension hurts it too much here. The F328Be I'd be much more confident about saying it would outdo the 8361 in max SPL. It's similar in size to the Salon2, but doesn't try to dig nearly as deep. Your point definitely makes sense though.

SoundStage Hifi showed the tweeter started showing signs of compression at 95dB compared to 70dB, so the dynamic limits are probably around a similar ballpark to the 8361.

We all dream the day at amirm posts his 86dB, 96dB and 106dB distortion tests on his Salon 2 and put us out of our misery...

There's a review website out there that shows the max spl of the 8361 tweeter, but I don't remember the name.

 

[Sancus]

This is the reason I struggle to believe the 8341 with subs will compete with my F208s and subs. Woofage matters.

It wouldn't. The 8351B would probably be very close with a sub -- although the F208 doesn't have the complete distortion graph, I see 3rd harmonic peeking above 45dB between 100-200hz which is very similar to the 8351B's graph. To play obviously louder than the F208 you would need the 8361A.

There's an review website out there that shows the max spl of the 8361 tweeter, but I don't remember the name.

Tweeter output really doesn't matter IMO. If you're trying to make your tweeter play 106dB then your woofer's already hit the limiter on any real content at LEAST 15-20dB earlier, with or without a sub. Heck, the midrange probably hits the limiter first on real content.

 

[a|F]

I think it's time for a group buy.

 

[amirm]

Which amp is driving your Salons?

It was Mark Levinson No 53 monoblock for each channel. But one went bad so I switched to Mark Levinson Reference No 532:

It is dual mono with 400 watts each into 8 ohm so probably double that for 4 ohm. Weighs 120 pounds.

 

[tktran303]

I think you kinda misunderstand what Ilka is actually saying. Genelec use the best drivers available for the problem they're trying to solve. His point was that they don't use expensive(beryllium, diamond, etc.) drivers for the sake of using expensive drivers. They use the best purpose fit drivers they can, even if that means using cheaper paper woofers or cheaper aluminum tweeters. The woofers in the Ones are custom made by Genelec themselves and very high quality.



You're correct that there is no replacement for displacement, but the woofer size edge isn't all that big, and you're forgetting one part of the triangle(extension). We're ultimately talking 3 8" woofers against 2 8.5" woofers, with the major caveat that they 3 8's have to also dig way deeper(23Hz -3dB vs 30Hz -6dB ). Is it possible that you're underestimating how hard that extra extension is to achieve? That's a big difference in extension.



You're kinda missing my point here. In this scenario, I'm thinking both speakers are limited by power, not drivers. 8361 is limited by the amplifiers in it's case. Salon2 I'm guessing is most likely going to be limited by available amplifier power(or wall socket power).



This is more along the lines of what I was asking about. We know?(I'm honestly not too sure what their specs mean) that the 8361 can hit peaks of 124dB and do 118dB for a "short" period. Plugging in the numbers, the Salon2 would need 1600? watts to reach 118dB, and 6300? watts to reach 124dB. How many Salon2 owners have amps that can deliver that much power(even if it can take it). I'm actually starting to think the 8361 probably gets louder on average. Perhaps some Salon2 owners with $100,000 monster amps can match it?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I really think the Salon2s significantly deeper extension hurts it too much here. The F328Be I'd be much more confident about saying it would outdo the 8361 in max SPL. It's similar in size to the Salon2, but doesn't try to dig nearly as deep. Your point definitely makes sense though.


There's an review website out there that shows the max spl of the 8361 tweeter, but I don't remember the name.

Richard,

To avoid confusion of other readers, let's be clear. The max SPL depends on a lot of factors. It's not as simple as what you and I are talking about. The only way we can settle it is if its tested apples for apples with the Salon 2 vs 8361 on the NFS and tested at 106 or 116d or 126dB and see what happens to the frequency response and distortion.

But let me be clear, I'm talking about the SPL in the bass region- it is never limited by the power, its limited by displacement. This is topic loudspeaker designers better versed than me can explain. As long as the Salon 2 can displace more volume (Sd times excursion) than the 8561, it's going to be able to go louder. It may need more voltage to get there. Whereas the 8561, any more voltage won't make any difference- the cones already travelled to the limits of its suspension.

But this is not related directly to the extension. The extension directly affects the sensitivity- which is why the 3 8" woofers in the Salon 2 can gather up only 86.4dB with 2.83V (usually measured at 300Hz to 3Khz). The other side of the coin is, to get the deep extension they got with the Salon 2, they had to give up some sensitivity. (Hoffman's Iron law)

Anyway, I think I'm getting off topic...

 

[richard12511]

But let me be clear, I'm talking about the SPL in the bass region- it is never limited by the power, its limited by displacement.

Other than your incorrect statement that Genelec doesn't use great drivers, this is the part I think disagree with(and am trying to understand). Using myself as an example, I'm guessing the Salon2's woofers can take more power than any amp I own can deliver. My best amp is 880 watts into 4 ohms, which puts the Salon2 at a max of 115.4. Is this correct?

 

[stunta]

It was Mark Levinson No 53 monoblock for each channel. But one went bad so I switched to Mark Levinson Reference No 532:

It is dual mono with 400 watts each into 8 ohm so probably double that for 4 ohm. Weighs 120 pounds.

With that kind of power (and weight) driving your Salons, your opinion of the Genelecs carries a lot more ... weight

Here I am with 708Ps and 3 subs scratching my head and wondering if I should start all over again. I wish it were less cumbersome to swap out gear. This is why I love being in software vs. hardware - a new version is a just a download away! But then, I need those damn speakers to make actual noise!

 

[Tangband]

Richard,

To avoid confusion of other readers, let's be clear. The max SPL depends on a lot of factors. It's not as simple as what you and I are talking about. The only way we can settle it is if its tested apples for apples with the Salon 2 vs 8361 on the NFS and tested at 106 or 116d or 126dB and see what happens to the frequency response and distortion.

But let me be clear, I'm talking about the SPL in the bass region- it is never limited by the power, its limited by displacement. This is topic loudspeaker designers better versed than me can explain. As long as the Salon 2 can displace more volume (Sd times excursion) than the 8561, it's going to be able to go louder. It may need more voltage to get there. Whereas the 8561, any more voltage won't make any difference- the cones already travelled to the limits of its suspension.

But this is not related directly to the extension. The extension directly affects the sensitivity- which is why the 3 8" woofers in the Salon 2 can gather up only 86.4dB with 2.83V (usually measured at 300Hz to 3Khz). The other side of the coin is, to get the deep extension they got with the Salon 2, they had to give up some sensitivity. (Hoffman's Iron law)

Anyway, I think I'm getting off topic...

This is simply wrong .
A 10 inch driver can NOT play louder than an 8 inch driver . It depends on many things , the implementation, the power amps used and above all - the quality of the driver .

A good 8 inch driver can move more air with less distortion than a bad 10 inch driver .

The active approach is wastly superior driving the bass units in the bass region, providing better damping below the EMF area in loudspeakers .
The Genelec 8361 will probably sound much better in the bass region because of that simply thing. But again - a good 8 inch driver can play louder than a bad 10 incher, so the things youre writing simply isnt true.

 

[Holmz]

It was Mark Levinson No 53 monoblock for each channel. But one went bad so I switched to Mark Levinson Reference No 532:

It is dual mono with 400 watts each into 8 ohm so probably double that for 4 ohm. Weighs 120 pounds.

FCS, between ^that^, and all the heavy speakers… you must live on Popeye type of diet, mainly of spinach?