Genelec 8351b with 2x 7370 vs Sopra No2 vs Atc 50 ASL

[Ron Texas]

If you don't know what a pouce, what do you here?
Two jbl 305 haven't the same response.
Pouce?

You had better watch out or a big bear will pouce on you, LOL.

 

[Pearljam5000]

What the hell is a pouce?

 

[dfuller]

Also have no idea what a pouce is.

edit: Oh, it's french for inch. Got it.

 

[richard12511]

For this kind of money I would get Revel 226Be's and subs or 228Be without subs for simplicity. There is a disconnect on this board because Revel and JBL are so expensive in Europe while Genelec and some others are very expensive in the US.

What bothers me about Genelec is the are a few members here who have placed this brand on a pedestal. I keep seeing comments like the 8351 is nearfield or they don't disappear the way Revel's do which make me wonder about their suitability for home systems, especially at the high prices.

It's true they measure great out of the box because of how the DSP is set up, 708P's cost half as much and 5 minutes with their built in DSP will work wonders and they play loud.

IMO, 8351s are only nearfield without subs or if you place them too close together. I had a similar experience at first, but moving them about 5ft further apart fixed that. Without subs, I wouldn't use them farfield.

With subs, though, I can sustain over 110dB at near 4m with perfect center imaging and no distortion. I've compared them directly with the D&D 8C in the farfield(3.5m) and we found the 8351bs to be slightly better in that situation. When we tried without, subs, though, the 8C was a much better speaker.

I don't think anyone really puts Genelec on a pedestal that they shouldn't be on. To me, they're roughly on the same tier is Neumann, Revel, KEF.

 

[richard12511]

I am one of the more visible LS50 owners around here. With subs they really sing, but that costs, and integration has been a PITA. Fortunately, nirvana has arrived and I can spend my money on bar tabs instead.

The LS50(meta) is a good comparison to the 8351b imo. Both are tough to beat at their price point if subs are helping, but one can get better full range performance for a similar price in both situations.

BTW, I'm talking strictly home use. I've never been in a studio, so all my comparisons are done at 3.5-4m in home.

 

[Ron Texas]

BTW, I'm talking strictly home use. I've never been in a studio, so all my comparisons are done at 3.5-4m in home.

Both KEF and B&W specify 2 to 3 meters for the LP. 4M is far field, not mid field. If it works, more power to you. I used to have a very big room, a converted garage which was big enough for 2 oversize American SUV's, and listened at just under 3M. I also find it hard to believe the LS50 meta is any better than the original with EQ, BTW.

 

[richard12511]

Both KEF and B&W specify 2 to 3 meters for the LP. 4M is far field, not mid field. If it works, more power to you. I used to have a very big room, a converted garage which was big enough for 2 oversize American SUV's, and listened at just under 3M. I also find it hard to believe the LS50 meta is any better than the original with EQ, BTW.

I experimented quite a bit with positioning when I first got them. I actually found kinda the opposite of what you said. They sound fantastic "far" field, but I didn't like them nearfield as much. I found a "nearfield" spot that measured near perfect with the speakers about 8ft(2.5m) apart, but it just never sounded right. Hard to describe, but it was almost "overwhelming"?(really can't think of a good word). Felt like it was right on top me or something(maybe I just don't like the nearfield sound). Right now I've got them in a 12' equilateral triangle that sounds fantastic.

That's all with many 18" woofers helping out on the low end, though. I think Mesanovic RTM10 and 8C studio are better values for a full range experience. Same with the Salon2(I've actually had offers that low or lower ). Best value actually may be the Philharmonic BMR Tower; super wide dispersion, 25Hz -3 extension and sealed. Really want to see measurements of that one.

I think you're probably right about the LS50 + EQ vs LS50Meta, but it relies on good anechoic measurements and your sample matching that sample closely. KEF has shown great tolerance though, so far. There may still be a small distortion difference, but no idea how audible that is(if it even is).

 

[Sancus]

I keep seeing comments like the 8351 is nearfield or they don't disappear the way Revel's do which make me wonder about their suitability for home systems, especially at the high prices.

Well the term 'nearfield' is used often and without precision or definition. To many people it means ~1m or less, the distance you get from placing speakers on a typical desktop. To Genelec and other people using the pro audio definition of it, though, it just means that the direct sound is dominant, which can be as far as 5m with some speakers in an exceptionally large room. As far as "disappearing" talk goes, IMO it's silly and pointless, but we've been over that one before.

 

[HooStat]

With subs, though, I can sustain over 110dB at near 4m with perfect center imaging and no distortion. I've compared them directly with the D&D 8C in the farfield(3.5m) and we found the 8351bs to be slightly better in that situation. When we tried without, subs, though, the 8C was a much better speaker.

You answered the question I was going to ask. When you used subs with the 8351b's were they Genelec subs? Or "regular" subs (like Rythmik, SVS, etc)? I think maybe you posted about this already -- will do a search.

 

[stevenswall]

What bothers me about Genelec is the are a few members here who have placed this brand on a pedestal. I keep seeing comments like the 8351 is nearfield or they don't disappear the way Revel's do which make me wonder about their suitability for home systems, especially at the high prices.

I think they are on a pedestal because they consistently measure as well or better than competitors.

If they were called midfield monitors I think half the people who think the 8351B is only for nearfield would disappear.

Of those remaining, I'll bet another half is either listening more than 10 feet away, or aren't using a subwoofer.

Of the final 25%, I'd be curious to see the levels they listen at... The Kali IN8 v2 pair in my living room go "I'm an idiot who would like to go deaf and would be better served by buying Drano for my ears" loud.

For home theater where people want the "cinema experience" with loudness at the cost of everything else, and image size over every other measurable aspect of a quality display, sure, don't get the 8000 series, they should get the 1000 series.

Vs. Revel, people need to look at the dispersion of the 83x1 series: it's more narrow. If one wants a wide dispersion Genelec they have to go back to the 8260. If it's dispersion or something else, I'd like that to be defined and explained. Seems too often to just be "that's my opinion" or "they aren't loud enough."

Same with some who prefer the 1000 series Genelecs because they are more 'dynamic.'

No, they are just louder.

 

[stevenswall]

As far as "disappearing" talk goes, IMO it's silly and pointless, but we've been over that one before.

Agreed. Hard to argue that without specifics. Did they have wider dispersion so they made more reflections and that made it harder to identify their position? Did they calibrate to the room? Did they not excite as many room nodes? Did they have a better phantom center and narrow dispersion?

 

[Helicopter]

I would get the Focals. If I could go off menu, I would go for Kanta no. 3 in that big room. With Kanta you get Focal's most advanced baffle / waveguide, and the Be tweeter.

I am running Focal Aria 948 in a 50m^2 room and they are awesome.

 

[Ron Texas]

I think they are on a pedestal because they consistently measure as well or better than competitors.

Frequency response deviations can usually be fixed. Dispersion can't be fixed. Preference scores don't take dynamic range into account. Subwoofers make a difference, but can be a bitch to add. The science is good, but has it's limits. A lot of the members are charmed by the numbers. I wish someone would take apart an active speaker and test the electronics. I bet they aren't even close to the least expensive Hypex amps.

I can remember a post by someone agonizing over whether to get a Revel M105 or M106 because the smaller speaker had a preference score that was better by 0.1. A lot of folks around here need to get real. Maybe I shouldn't say anything about Genelecs because nobody around here sells them. However, I keep seeing comments which give me doubts. Maybe my patience with the LS50's paid off. They didn't work right until I had 2 subs and didn't reach their full potential until going to a high crossover point which some experts say would not work.

But that's our world today. Surrender your judgment to the experts or use your own wet computer. [Please don't put a political spin on this. It's about basic issues in life.]

 

[dfuller]

Frequency response deviations can usually be fixed. Dispersion can't be fixed. Preference scores don't take dynamic range into account. Subwoofers make a difference, but can be a bitch to add. The science is good, but has it's limits. A lot of the members are charmed by the numbers. I wish someone would take apart an active speaker and test the electronics. I bet they aren't even close to the least expensive Hypex amps.

I can remember a post by someone agonizing over whether to get a Revel M105 or M106 because the smaller speaker had a preference score that was better by 0.1. A lot of folks around here need to get real. Maybe I shouldn't say anything about Genelecs because nobody around here sells them. However, I keep seeing comments which give me doubts. Maybe my patience with the LS50's paid off. They didn't work right until I had 2 subs and didn't reach their full potential until going to a high crossover point which some experts say would not work.

But that's our world today. Surrender your judgment to the experts or use your own wet computer. [Please don't put a political spin on this. It's about basic issues in life.]

I have not been particularly enthused with any Genelecs I've used (save for the old 1031s). This is coming from the perspective of a mixer, not as a home audio guy, but the 80x0 series were the only speakers that straight up lied to me about a mix. Things that are half-done sound great on them so you think they're good enough, but on other speakers they were an effing mess. That means, to me, that they don't translate properly. Why that is, I can't tell you, but that experience alone soured me.

 

[Sancus]

Frequency response deviations can usually be fixed. Dispersion can't be fixed. Preference scores don't take dynamic range into account. Subwoofers make a difference, but can be a bitch to add. The science is good, but has it's limits. A lot of the members are charmed by the numbers. I wish someone would take apart an active speaker and test the electronics. I bet they aren't even close to the least expensive Hypex amps.

Nobody's telling you you have to like Genelecs to post on this forum. But it's definitely not just a preference score thing. They have exceptionally good on-axis FR and off-axis dispersion across the board. They have very good dynamic range and very low distortion for their size. For example, if you compare the 8030C to the M105, it's not even close, the 8030C has much lower distortion. People reach the erroneous conclusion they can't play loud because they are actives with EQ-boosted extension, and that's the only reason. They actually all play exceptionally loud considering their size and extension, except for the discontinued 8351A.

They are also one of only a few companies to publish measurements and specs that have both been verified by multiple third parties to be accurate and honest. Plus, they have a long history of excellence and a reputation for reliability, standing behind their products, and manufacturing them in a relatively high income country with well-treated employees. Even Harman doesn't do those things, and while they're secondary to a good product, I do prefer to support a manufacturer who is treating their customers with respect when most aren't.

They're just not magic, they don't defeat physics. They're not floorstanders, and outside of the 8361A and main monitors, can't play extreme SPLs without subwoofers. But that's fine. A lot of people simply don't want large floorstanders. Some people do. I would never recommend a pair of Genelecs with no subwoofers to someone looking to listen at 4-5m in an unusually large room. I don't think most members would either.

 

[Frgirard]

But that's our world today. Surrender your judgment to the experts or use your own wet computer. [Please don't put a political spin on this. It's about basic issues in life.]

The audiophile world thinks he can do better the speaker engineer and can hear more detail the mastering engineer.

 

[Frgirard]

They're just not magic, they don't defeat physics. They're not floorstanders, and outside of the 8361A and main monitors, can't play extreme SPLs without subwoofers. But that's fine. A lot of people simply don't want large floorstanders. Some people do. I would never recommend a pair of Genelecs with no subwoofers to someone looking to listen at 4-5m in an unusually large room. I don't think most members would either.

you forgot this speakers are disigned for a near filed use. Not for a living room and his disastrous acoustic but a studio and on a console.

 

[Frgirard]

What the hell is a pouce?

a дюйм

 

[Sancus]

you forgot this speakers are disigned for a near filed use. Not for a living room and his disastrous acoustic but a studio and on a console.

I didn't forget it, you're just not actually reading the posts in the thread, as usual. "on a console" is a pretty disastrous acoustic environment, btw. Further, this idea that they're only suited to nearfield is silly. No one has ever put forth any meaningful explanation of why there would be such a restriction. And if you ask Genelec themselves, they'll say something like sure longer distances are no problem. And that their recommendations are based on studio conditions, which require higher SPL, so in the home the distances can be longer.

 

[Frgirard]

the audiophile is a genius