Genelec 8351b with 2x 7370 vs Sopra No2 vs Atc 50 ASL

[Senior NEET Engineer]

the genelec will be with 2 x 7370. Have you tried them together with the subwoofers ???

Doesn't help much in 100-200hz region. Only moving the bass driver closer to floor helps.

 

[Chrise36]

Honestly, it depends what you're after.

The ATCs are good speakers, and they get loud as nuts before running out of steam (or even sounding audibly distorted, for that matter), but their low end extension for their size is pretty not great - and this is a running theme amongst all ATCs (ATC themselves admit this, quoting an F6 of 38hz but roll-off starts at 70!). They are more than likely less even in terms of directivity than the Genelecs, but that's no surprise. They do waveguide load the midrange and tweeter, however, so it's likely not too too bad. The other thing to note is that ATC's plate amps have a very long track record of being seemingly indestructible - I've never heard of one fail.

The Genelecs are going to behave more like a point source - the boxes are smaller, plus the coaxial mid/tweeter loaded in an essentially front baffle-sized waveguide will do that. They also extend notably lower. However they do not behave themselves nearly as well at high volumes - Genelec uses a very aggressive limiter for driver protection and they will kick in earlier than expected. I agree with Keith that these are primarily a near-field monitor system and not really a good choice for 10 feet back.

Focals are generally wider dispersion than most because of their tweeter design (the inverted dome for whatever reason is extremely wide). This can sound quite bright in room. However I would take their low end extension with a few grains of salt. Focal's F3 is generally quite optimistic - just for example, the Shape 65 is quoted as an F3 of 40hz but in 3rd party tests it ends up being more like an F6 of 42hz, which is considerably different. The W cones are remarkably good with regard to distortion, staying around 1% below 100hz even at 96dB/1m anechoic. Keep in mind however that these do need amps, unlike the other two.

At this kind of budget I would look into the D&D 8Cs as well.

If you don't care about studio looks I agree with @flowjm that the KH420s should be considered. They have very even directivity horizontally and extend remarkably low.

No roll of at 70hz at all -5 db at 30hz from a single scm40 nearfield measurement of course in room i get -5 db down to 25hz with nulls and peaks

 

[dfuller]

With subwoofers, it is doubtful that there is a problem at all. The 8361A (exactly the same coaxial unit as the 8351B) can go extremely loud as per S&R (too bad there's no detail on for the THD) and Amir's review of the 8351B shows < 0.6% H3 after 100 Hz at 96 dB; though there's a "worrying amount" (0.6%) of H5 in the 140~200 Hz area; if only Amir did test 106 dB with a subwoofer like high pass filter for speakers that are worthy of this...

Yes, I neglected to mention the bit about subs. The limiter seems to kick in much more substantially with lots of low bass content.

No roll of at 70hz at all -5 db at 30hz from a single scm40 nearfield measurement of course in room i get -5 db down to 25hz with nulls and peaks

That's in-room, so I wouldn't trust it.

 

[Chrise36]

Yes, I neglected to mention the bit about subs. The limiter seems to kick in much more substantially with lots of low bass content.



That's in-room, so I wouldn't trust it.

No the attached jpg is 1 cm away from the woofer

 

[test1223]

I would like your opinion on 3 speakers and what would be the differences between them.
On the one hand the genelec 8351b together with 2x 7370 and on the other the sopra No 2 and also the third option the ATC 50 ASL
The space / living room is about 45 m2 (5X8)
The listening position is about 3 meters
I understand that they are different speakers, but I would like your objective view on what I will hear from these 3 cases.
In money I cover all 3 cases including the extras that will be needed in the case of the passive Sopra no 2

All three are not ideal for 3m listening distance. The ATC is best suited for this distance but also a bit to small. A Genelec 1237, Geithain RL 801K, ATC scm 100asl or a JBL M 2 should fit much better given the more narrow directivity.

 

[DSJR]

For what it's worth, I've been an ATC fanboy for thirty years now BUT - I'd never dare to say they're the best around at the price these days. Sure they're old school, but 50ASL's and 100ASL's can work in smaller rooms without stress or boom (my 100A's were slightly 'tubby' if anything in the listening seat in my small room, but it was more a room issue than the speakers). I loved the Kii Threes too and never found the top harsh or spitty - indeed, they were almost sweet toned to me but definitely not rolled off 'up there.'

[edit] - 3m for 50ASL's *in a domestic environment* should be fine if monitoring levels aren't required. My 100A's deafened me in a room that size, but for many rock and rollers, 100dB+ as measured may not be loud enough

ATC's have had a good domestic presence for decades now, so should be easy to get a dem hopefully - PLEASE DON'T EVER be tempted to get their three way passives - I honestly don't know why they sell them unless it's purely for financial gain and they were a no-no even thirty years ago I remember (I had many factory visits back then and knew Billy & Tim personally for a few years until I changed jobs). I loved the way this brand makes their designs and the friendly atmosphere there, but obviously times move on and it's a slightly different company now. Service of old ones ain't an issue though, even 1993 issue models as mine were...

Not sure how you could get a proper dem of Genelecs (do pro music/gear shops have dem facilities apart from a wall of speakers all interfering with each other?).

I suppose if it was me and had the money now to spend, I'd always look to the ATC's first and specs/Spinorama be damned!!! My local dealer has 50ASL's I believe and I think the Kii's still, so I suppose had I the money and intention I could look there. No idea about Genelec - do I really *want* my music forensically analysed by a monitor designed to do exactly that for it's living? Some well reviewed but not hugely expensive Revels sounded almost too 'squeaky clean' to my ears, but they were lower model floor standers rather than the huge Salon types.

 

[Alastair]

I understand that they are different speakers, but I would like your objective view on what I will hear from these 3 cases.

In my humble view it is very difficult to answer this question unless you’ve personally listened to all three speakers. Fans of each one (or haters!) will come forward.

I doubt a dealer will exist who stocks all 3, Genelec and ATC definitely if you look for a pro store (certainly the case in the uk).

Being an ATC 100ASL user and historically a 50ASL user, I listen at a distance of about 3.0m, in an equilateral triangle. It all works fine but I do use EQ to tame some excess low frequency boom due to boundary positions of the speakers and my listening seat (which is close to the rear wall).

My advice would be to try to listen to them all and get home demos where possible.

 

[tw99]

ATC's have had a good domestic presence for decades now, so should be easy to get a dem hopefully - PLEASE DON'T EVER be tempted to get their three way passives - I honestly don't know why they sell them unless it's purely for financial gain and they were a no-no even thirty years ago I remember (I had many factory visits back then and knew Billy & Tim personally for a few years until I changed jobs). I loved the way this brand makes their designs and the friendly atmosphere there, but obviously times move on and it's a slightly different company now. Service of old ones ain't an issue though, even 1993 issue models as mine were...

You've said this before, do you want to explain it a bit further why you think the passives are so bad, preferably with some technical justification/evidence ?

 

[richard12511]

ATC's have had a good domestic presence for decades now, so should be easy to get a dem hopefully - PLEASE DON'T EVER be tempted to get their three way passives - I honestly don't know why they sell them unless it's purely for financial gain.

They essentially admit that they make the passives simply for financial gain. When asked directly, they're very honest in saying that the active version will always sound better, but they still sell the passives because they know that many audiophiles don't understand the science and like to mess about with changing AMPS and other components(experimenting with various placebos ). Hearing that from them made me really respect them. Alan Shaw(Harbeth) has also been honest in that regard.

 

[Pearljam5000]

He says the actives sound better, but i Only trust my ears and they do sound better in the video.

 

[Pearljam5000]

 

[Frgirard]

Stra

They essentially admit that they make the passives simply for financial gain. When asked directly, they're very honest in saying that the active version will always sound better, but they still sell the passives because they know that many audiophiles don't understand the science and like to mess about with changing AMPS and other components(experimenting with various placebos ). Hearing that from them made me really respect them. Alan Shaw(Harbeth) has also been honest in that regard.

They continue to sold passive speakers without advertising on the ATC website..
Respect

 

[Ron Texas]

I feel the after having the 8351B’s here they they are essentially a near field speaker, and three metres may be just too faraway to enjoy a truly immersive sound.
Keith

The smoking gun?

 

[Chrise36]

They essentially admit that they make the passives simply for financial gain. When asked directly, they're very honest in saying that the active version will always sound better, but they still sell the passives because they know that many audiophiles don't understand the science and like to mess about with changing AMPS and other components(experimenting with various placebos ). Hearing that from them made me really respect them. Alan Shaw(Harbeth) has also been honest in that regard.

The question is if it is worth the price for the actives and how transparent the amps are.There is the option of driving the passives actively with a pair of Hypex Fusion with little fuss and have a true high fidelity system customised to your room and taste.

 

[DSJR]

You've said this before, do you want to explain it a bit further why you think the passives are so bad, preferably with some technical justification/evidence ?

The real evidence was on a very long and heated thread on Zero Gain (now all but defunct) where raw response traces were made of the ATC mid dome. I also had chats with the powers that be as well but apologies I can't link you to white papers and so on as absolute proof. Said dome has very narrow passband (told to me and the ZG plots showed this), is used basically 'wide open' with very little 'safety overlap' in the crossover and maybe that'd be that except for nasty resonances at the bottom and top of its range.

Now, I do appreciate the 'waveguide' in the chassis casting was changed some time back to a 'curvy' profile and this may well have improved things here a bit (the thread I mention (now long gone) was around ten years back and the curvy waveguide was well in use by then), but the discussion centred around the crossover slopes used which would put said resonances only ten to fifteen dB down in level.

There was also an issue in the late 90's where the dome doping had gradually become lighter over the years (dependent on the person applying it) and this lifted the response range up in frequency slightly (as told by their then sales manager). This was sorted once identified though, but it was a worrying issue at least for a time.

The passive crossover has absolutely NO means of dealing with variabilities in the mid dome and neither can the phase relationship be adjusted passively. ATC made a huge thing back then of the active three ways being easily set up for driver level differences relative to the bass driver and once the levels were set, the phase of at least the bass to mid drivers could be adjusted as well (I think mid to tweet was too but can't remember now). The active crossovers long ago went from third order to fourth, but I don't know the exact year this was done - my 100A's had the solid 'handles' on the active amp-packs rather then the early bent rod types if that helps identify them, but it's my understanding the amp packs were altered again (I've been away from them for along time now sadly). The passive ones used to be played down by the factory as the feeling was that no amp at any price or power level could get over the shortcomings and compromises in the passive crossover.

So, I'm sorry to only be able to share experiences and knowledge gained from the designers and sales managers of old with nothing on paper to back it up. These days apart from here and one or two other precious sites, proper third party tech assessment is sadly lacking and I find most subjective reviews tiresome in the extreme. ATC used to have published AES papers but when Billy published his last one I don't know. These days, steeper slopes in active amps plus DSP in the latest actives out there may well have moved things on hugely, but my own take is that older mature tech shouldn't and needn't be automatically discarded.

I heard a current pair of 100ASL's eighteen months back (cherry veneer on stands with FLOOR SPIKES - YIKES!!!) driven by their £2k pre/CD unit and I just stood there with tears down my cheeks, missing what I had so very much and revelling in the superior clarity at domestic levels where mine needed welly to fully open out.

I just love large speakers and all too often in the past, *some* smaller speakers with plenty of bass eq to bolster the response up, can give what I call 'stunt bass' which may gove the note but it doesn't breathe. I also shed a tear hearing the JBL 4367, which may also not be the best, but such a big heart set up carefully


P.S. Just seen this - http://studio-hifi.com/images/ATC75-150S_JeffBagby.pdf - The upper resonance is shown but I have to say the lower one isn't. The scale of the plots is extremely cramped though, so much is no doubt hidden. the slight 'dome shape' of the response is normal and how my 100A's measured in the mids (about a 2 - 3dB hump). That in itself may condemn them here and I accept that.

 

[DSJR]

The question is if it is worth the price for the actives and how transparent the amps are.There is the option of driving the passives actively with a pair of Hypex Fusion with little fuss and have a true high fidelity system customised to your room and taste.

Won't work as well for reasons in my post above!

The ATC amps are pretty good and the active amp packs (AB with fair biasing to seemingly give Class A for the first third of output or so) are designed specifically to drive the 16 ohm drivers (something about MOS-FETs and linearity but memory is vague). The distortion in a loudspeaker will ALWAYS way overshadow the electronics used (I mean, look at the hissy cheap chip amps the cheap actives tested here use to great effect). My ATC's (100A's and later, 20ASL Pros) NEVER hissed or hummed at home - and this was when my ears were working better! - and the bass diver change to the SL type plus port re-tuning made a heck of a change in perceived clarity, all ancient history now of course. I believe their separate amps use similar design tech and none of them have ever come out badly I remember. I used their SPA-150 for a few years and it was a quiet powerhouse of an amp at the time with no loss of clarity and easily rteproducing recording production differences and so on up-stream.

 

[dfuller]

The ATC amps are pretty good and the active amp packs (AB with fair biasing to seemingly give Class A for the first third of output or so) are designed specifically to drive the 16 ohm drivers (something about MOS-FETs and linearity but memory is vague).

Looking at the specs for the P1 Pro (which is the same architecture, IIRC) - it's about as good as Hypex, maybe not quite, but 95dB or so SINAD.

The question is if it is worth the price for the actives and how transparent the amps are.There is the option of driving the passives actively with a pair of Hypex Fusion with little fuss and have a true high fidelity system customised to your room and taste.

IMO it's always worth going active if you have the option. Active crossovers are generally speaking a better option because you can do more with them without encountering impedance weirdness from interactions with the driver's inherent impedance, plus it's less between the amp and driver (which, as it stands, is better). It's generally true that active setups are more efficient as-is, as well, because of the lack of losses through the crossover post-amp.

 

[Chrise36]

The real evidence was on a very long and heated thread on Zero Gain (now all but defunct) where raw response traces were made of the ATC mid dome. I also had chats with the powers that be as well but apologies I can't link you to white papers and so on as absolute proof. Said dome has very narrow passband (told to me and the ZG plots showed this), is used basically 'wide open' with very little 'safety overlap' in the crossover and maybe that'd be that except for nasty resonances at the bottom and top of its range.

Now, I do appreciate the 'waveguide' in the chassis casting was changed some time back to a 'curvy' profile and this may well have improved things here a bit (the thread I mention (now long gone) was around ten years back and the curvy waveguide was well in use by then), but the discussion centred around the crossover slopes used which would put said resonances only ten to fifteen dB down in level.

There was also an issue in the late 90's where the dome doping had gradually become lighter over the years (dependent on the person applying it) and this lifted the response range up in frequency slightly (as told by their then sales manager). This was sorted once identified though, but it was a worrying issue at least for a time.

The passive crossover has absolutely NO means of dealing with variabilities in the mid dome and neither can the phase relationship be adjusted passively. ATC made a huge thing back then of the active three ways being easily set up for driver level differences relative to the bass driver and once the levels were set, the phase of at least the bass to mid drivers could be adjusted as well (I think mid to tweet was too but can't remember now). The active crossovers long ago went from third order to fourth, but I don't know the exact year this was done - my 100A's had the solid 'handles' on the active amp-packs rather then the early bent rod types if that helps identify them, but it's my understanding the amp packs were altered again (I've been away from them for along time now sadly). The passive ones used to be played down by the factory as the feeling was that no amp at any price or power level could get over the shortcomings and compromises in the passive crossover.

So, I'm sorry to only be able to share experiences and knowledge gained from the designers and sales managers of old with nothing on paper to back it up. These days apart from here and one or two other precious sites, proper third party tech assessment is sadly lacking and I find most subjective reviews tiresome in the extreme. ATC used to have published AES papers but when Billy published his last one I don't know. These days, steeper slopes in active amps plus DSP in the latest actives out there may well have moved things on hugely, but my own take is that older mature tech shouldn't and needn't be automatically discarded.

I heard a current pair of 100ASL's eighteen months back (cherry veneer on stands with FLOOR SPIKES - YIKES!!!) driven by their £2k pre/CD unit and I just stood there with tears down my cheeks, missing what I had so very much and revelling in the superior clarity at domestic levels where mine needed welly to fully open out.

I just love large speakers and all too often in the past, *some* smaller speakers with plenty of bass eq to bolster the response up, can give what I call 'stunt bass' which may gove the note but it doesn't breathe. I also shed a tear hearing the JBL 4367, which may also not be the best, but such a big heart set up carefully


P.S. Just seen this - http://studio-hifi.com/images/ATC75-150S_JeffBagby.pdf - The upper resonance is shown but I have to say the lower one isn't. The scale of the plots is extremely cramped though, so much is no doubt hidden. the slight 'dome shape' of the response is normal and how my 100A's measured in the mids (about a 2 - 3dB hump). That in itself may condemn them here and I accept that.

These are my nearfield measurements of the mid about 4cm away

 

[Chrise36]

Looking at the specs for the P1 Pro (which is the same architecture, IIRC) - it's about as good as Hypex, maybe not quite, but 95dB or so SINAD.

IMO it's always worth going active if you have the option. Active crossovers are generally speaking a better option because you can do more with them without encountering impedance weirdness from interactions with the driver's inherent impedance, plus it's less between the amp and driver (which, as it stands, is better). It's generally true that active setups are more efficient as-is, as well, because of the lack of losses through the crossover post-amp.

With modern class d with high damping factor and small cable lenghts impedance variation is not a problem. Class D has the problem of high frequency distortion and possible interactions with dac filters. An active setup has the advantage of using specific limiters and eq for every driver but i was always thinking about the vibrations reaching the caps and how it affects their performance.

 

[dfuller]

With modern class d with high damping factor and small cable lenghts impedance variation is not a problem.

The issue is not with the amp, it's with the crossover itself. If it's designed in an incompetent way (and, fact of the matter is, many are), then you can end up with massive current draw at many regions with a combination of phase angle and low impedance which can stress amps much harder than you'd think.

An active setup has the advantage of using specific limiters and eq for every driver but i was always thinking about the vibrations reaching the caps and how it affects their performance.

As long as they're secured properly, not at all. Part of the advantage of active crossovers is they operate at lower levels so you can get away with much smaller parts - as far as the power supply, they're secured so they don't break off in shipping.