Genelec 8351B Teardown (2nd Disassembled)

[Narmo]

Hi @Jason K, I’ve sent you a message if you could kindly check it.
Thanks!

 

[Azrael]

I used the search function in my browser to search the pages of this thread, However, only a few posts at the beginning of the thread address the following:

I would like to know more about the bass reflex port and see more details. @amirm tested a larger version of this design, and it was striking how smoothly the port worked there:

Does anyone have further information or even more revealing pictures of the port?

 

[HalasKYO]

Also interesting that it measures so well with a seemingly simple cabinet design. They must really know what they are doing.

Well today it is much much simpler, you can have a CAD model and run simulations on it for standing waves and optimize the placement of the ribs, to cancel those, that is why, they have almost none stuffing in the woofer chamber. Also it is not a milled part, it is casted and these forms are quiete easy to cast (simple 2 half tools, no slider, no special tool design for very precise casting etc). They use also glue (or foam insterts with pressure) most probably for the port, and screws. Most probably what makes them slighly more expensive are the fact that they need threads (it another step in the process, that makes sense to automate in the millions, or use a semi automatic line to reduce costs.).

 

[dfuller]

Does anyone have further information or even more revealing pictures of the port?

They're doing a similar thing to Neumann, making the port intentionally lossy at higher frequencies by basically "letting out" the organ pipe resonances while still inside the box.

 

[srrxr71]

Well today it is much much simpler, you can have a CAD model and run simulations on it for standing waves and optimize the placement of the ribs, to cancel those, that is why, they have almost none stuffing in the woofer chamber. Also it is not a milled part, it is casted and these forms are quiete easy to cast (simple 2 half tools, no slider, no special tool design for very precise casting etc). They use also glue (or foam insterts with pressure) most probably for the port, and screws. Most probably what makes them slighly more expensive are the fact that they need threads (it another step in the process, that makes sense to automate in the millions, or use a semi automatic line to reduce costs.).

Much cheaper than doing carpentry in a high cost of living country. Very intelligent decision to go cast aluminum.

 

[Descartes]

Kinda underwhelming for the money....

Extremely pricey for what you get! But hey it’s a free market, plus with 40 points margins to the dealers! I wished they would sell direct to customers and drop the prices by 30 points they would still make more money than having dealers. Especially since Sweetwater is the largest reseller and they are 100% online!!

 

[MrBlueSky4470]

Why do you find the price is too high given the performance? They are outstanding speakers; still among the best you can currently buy. So what doesn't justify the price? Too little gold, too little veneer? You can't even see how much research and development went into them.

 

[EJ3]

Extremely pricey for what you get!

That is a subjective opinion that is relative to you. (I don't like them because I don't like their aesthetic. That is also a subjective opinion.) And it is not relative to others.
(If either your opinion or mine were universally true, they would not be able to sell a single one). They both have ZERO relevance to whether the speaker measures as a good one or not a good one.
If there was no market for their products, they would have been out of business many years ago.

But hey it’s a free market, plus with 40 points margins to the dealers! I wished they would sell direct to customers and drop the prices by 30 points they would still make more money than having dealers. Especially since Sweetwater is the largest reseller and they are 100% online!!

40 points? Proof? Did they show you that?
And if it is true, so what?
If people are unwilling to pay it, then it won't sell in enough numbers to be profitable for their supply chain.

And you'll find it in the closeout, discontinued bin.

Since that has not happened, perhaps they DO know what they are doing.

 

[HalasKYO]

Much cheaper than doing carpentry in a high cost of living country. Very intelligent decision to go cast aluminum.

The tool cost is still significant ~I would say similar, to all the electric and hand tools (or even whole shop) that you require to make your box out of wood.(decently) A decent supplier, with lifetime 1-2 million unit tool start FROM 50k (mostly china, in the EU due to size I would say 100-150k€ but, due to size and such could go up to 500k. This needs to be invested ahead, small companies cannot affort it simly. In the long run, if the speaker is successfull fo course there is a break even. We can safely assume that for example Genelex knows the market, to know how many unit they will probably sell... By new comers it could be much more complex, but still we are talking from a huge group.. Let it put it that way, you can be rest assured they will nost starve if they sell . I just find if intertesting that only the big studio monitor era uses casting, its rare in audiphile... I would realy love to try some Genelec or Orbit 3-way.

 

[Descartes]

Why do you find the price is too high given the performance? They are outstanding speakers; still among the best you can currently buy. So what doesn't justify the price? Too little gold, too little veneer? You can't even see how much research and development went into them.

The distribution system is the issue I have when products are sold on line and have dealers the consumer is the one paying unnecessary middlemen!

 

[Descartes]

That is a subjective opinion that is relative to you. (I don't like them because I don't like their aesthetic. That is also a subjective opinion.) And it is not relative to others.
(If either your opinion or mine were universally true, they would not be able to sell a single one). They both have ZERO relevance to whether the speaker measures as a good one or not a good one.
If there was no market for their products, they would have been out of business many years ago.



40 points? Proof? Did they show you that?
And if it is true, so what?
If people are unwilling to pay it, then it won't sell in enough numbers to be profitable for their supply chain.

And you'll find it in the closeout, discontinued bin.

Since that has not happened, perhaps they DO know what they are doing.

Yes I have proof of those margins!

Sold primarily to studio recording companies so they can write it off as capital expenditure! For an individual you just grease the dealers, for no value added!

 

[MrBlueSky4470]

Take a look at the typical hi-fi market. You pay significantly more for a "high-end hi-fi product" that most likely sounds worse. I'm not saying these speakers are cheap. You can afford them or not, but to claim they're generally too expensive is simply ridiculous. They offer an incredible amount for their price and I see no difference in pricing compared to Neumann, ATC, Geithain, etc.

 

[EJ3]

Yes I have proof of those margins!

Sold primarily to studio recording companies so they can write it off as capital expenditure! For an individual you just grease the dealers, for no value added!

So: you are saying that the finished product, at the dealer level, has that high of a markup?
Or is it when you add up all the markups before and including at the dealer level?
I grew up in a family business of plumbing, heating and air conditioning that ran from 1927-2010 (when my father passed away).
In 1975 (when I was 18) I was awarded a Best Businessman of the Year award (in a 3 county area in the USA) for my first business that I started when I was 17.
Having owned 5 businesses over the years (1 selling a specialty positioned retail product), one a construction and home repair business and 3 service businesses).
It's possible (probable, even), that I know something about doing business, building a reputation and succeeding.
I still own and operate the one that I have not sold yet.

In my opinion (worth perhaps nothing): if you have less than an end of the chain 33% average markup, you're probably not going to make enough to make it worthwhile to stay in business.

 

[Frank Dernie]

So: you are saying that the finished product, at the dealer level, has that high of a markup?
Or is it when you add up all the markups before and including at the dealer level?
I grew up in a family business of plumbing, heating and air conditioning that ran from 1927-2010 (when my father passed away).
In 1975 (when I was 18) I was awarded a Best Businessman of the Year award (in a 3 county area in the USA) for my first business that I started when I was 17.
Having owned 5 businesses over the years (1 selling a specialty positioned retail product), one a construction and home repair business and 3 service businesses).
It's possible (probable, even), that I know something about doing business, building a reputation and succeeding.
I still own and operate the one that I have not sold yet.

In my opinion (worth perhaps nothing): if you have less than an end of the chain 33% average markup, you're probably not going to make enough to make it worthwhile to stay in business.

Quite.

When I worked for Garrard in the 1970s with the growth of mail order discount warehouses the dealer margin was set at 50% so he could give the customers the sort of discount they expected and still make some profit.

Obviously it depends on volume so bricks and mortar dealers with expensive premises and a small turnover are the least viable and need the biggest margin to survive.

 

[EJ3]

Quite.

When I worked for Garrard in the 1970s with the growth of mail order discount warehouses the dealer margin was set at 50% so he could give the customers the sort of discount they expected and still make some profit.

Obviously it depends on volume so bricks and mortar dealers with expensive premises and a small turnover are the least viable and need the biggest margin to survive.

Yep, what we did a lot of. This is what it would normally cost but we can get it done for this (without cutting corners).
Many took the cheaper deal of someone who cut corners and later: regretted it.
Some even became my customer later on.

 

[Descartes]

So: you are saying that the finished product, at the dealer level, has that high of a markup?
Or is it when you add up all the markups before and including at the dealer level?
I grew up in a family business of plumbing, heating and air conditioning that ran from 1927-2010 (when my father passed away).
In 1975 (when I was 18) I was awarded a Best Businessman of the Year award (in a 3 county area in the USA) for my first business that I started when I was 17.
Having owned 5 businesses over the years (1 selling a specialty positioned retail product), one a construction and home repair business and 3 service businesses).
It's possible (probable, even), that I know something about doing business, building a reputation and succeeding.
I still own and operate the one that I have not sold yet.

In my opinion (worth perhaps nothing): if you have less than an end of the chain 33% average markup, you're probably not going to make enough to make it worthwhile to stay in business.

Ok so what. plumbing is quite different than pushing boxes! It requires skilled labor.

Anyone can become an audio dealer selling other manufacturers products,
Ever been to a used car sales lot!

 

[EJ3]

Ok so what. plumbing is quite different than pushing boxes! It requires skilled labor.

Anyone can become an audio dealer selling other manufacturers products,
Ever been to a used car sales lot!

Yep, as a mechanic. I had to quit within 2 weeks because of the things that I was asked to do to the used cars so that they could hide issues that would cause them to sell for less (or even at all).
Plumbing is not retail, that is for sure.
For my first business, I had to sell advertising (on my radio show) to be able to have a radio show. Again, not retail.
In the late 70's, I sold business computers to businesses. Not like audio dealers because businesses NEEDED computers.
Audio gear is a product sold many times by how much DOPAMINE the sales person can generate in the buyer.
So there is a lot of HYPE to get the buyer to buy it.
ASR is here to help cut though the HYPE and keep us grounded in reality.

 

[EJ3]

Ok so what. plumbing is quite different than pushing boxes! It requires skilled labor.

Anyone can become an audio dealer selling other manufacturers products,
Ever been to a used car sales lot!

I did wan to mention that in the plumbing business we where building chemical factories, processing plants, sewer treatment plants & the like. It was mostly industrial and institutional (and NOT residential). So, there was bidding and contracts all the time.