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Genelec 8351B Teardown (2nd Disassembled)

So what the…. Are you trying to “improve” suggesting other stuffings should be used? When distortion or linearity isn’t a problem at the midrange anyway?????
Short time reflections aka small resonances are audible even if you can hardly see them in standard measurements like the amplitude frequency response. In a zoomed in impedance measurement you can see the effect of damping material on small resonances the best/ easiest.

If you ever build a cabinet with various amounts of damping material you easily can hear differences. Nevertheless in the amplitude frequency response these differences can be seen but seems to be minimal. However they are audible.

E.g. KEF with it's meta material is trying to eliminate exactly the issue of short time reflections aka small resonances (in the tweeter cabinet). These resonances hinder the speaker to sound "smooth" or in other words sound like there isn't a driver/ speaker at all.
 
Short time reflections aka small resonances are audible even if you can hardly see them in standard measurements like the amplitude frequency response. In a zoomed in impedance measurement you can see the effect of damping material on small resonances the best/ easiest.

If you ever build a cabinet with various amounts of damping material you easily can hear differences. Nevertheless in the amplitude frequency response these differences can be seen but seems to be minimal. However they are audible.

E.g. KEF with it's meta material is trying to eliminate exactly the issue of short time reflections aka small resonances (in the tweeter cabinet). These resonances hinder the speaker to sound "smooth" or in other words sound like there isn't a driver/ speaker at all.
Sorry man but you sounds like digging into a corner of imaginary issues..... there are FR amplitude and distortion audibility threshold, in KEF example the meta ver. did showed obvious FR improvement, and in the 8351 theres much less wiggles and distortion to begin with. And say even if you seal it with cement, denser materials also increase the back pressure the driver have to overcome during movement, now you have other induced distortions.

what Amirm's measurement isn't a simple, FR sweep in REW, I just couldn't get why you want to "fix" those "issues" where not even a very sensitive mic couldn't pick out.
 
Sorry man but you sounds like digging into a corner of imaginary issues..... there are FR amplitude and distortion audibility threshold, in KEF example the meta ver. did showed obvious FR improvement, and in the 8351 theres much less wiggles and distortion to begin with. And say even if you seal it with cement, denser materials also increase the back pressure the driver have to overcome during movement, now you have other induced distortions.

what Amirm's measurement isn't a simple, FR sweep in REW, I just couldn't get why you want to "fix" those "issues" where not even a very sensitive mic couldn't pick out.
Please read this research paper. Small resonances are an issue! Yes you can see them in the amplitude frequency response if the resolution is high but it is difficult.
 
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The waves from inside the midrange cabinet will be transmitted outside through the cone of the midrange driver, which is very thin compared to the cabinet.
You sidestepped, you assert several times the midrange cabinet is somehow lightly stuffed. It's stuffed to 100% of it's volume. Are you suggesting packing in material to neutron star density is going tame some remaining imaginary issues?
Yes you have to be sure that the material doesn't get contact with the cone. Such polyester wool has almost no effect in the lower midrange. You either have to stuff it or use much denser material. It is effective in the higher mids though.
I actually have done this experiment before. Let's do it again, since what you say is inconsistent with prior measurements I have made and seen.

I have a midrange, a cabinet, and some Jute and Polyfill stuffing.
1716182607413.png

The midrange is easy to remove with threaded inserts. I used a driver, set the torque to 11:cool: which gives a repeatable seal.
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I did 5 treatments, the first control is with no stuffing. I did runs with single layer of Jute, and the same with single layer Polyfill. The quantities are typical cabinet treatment, but not filling the entire cabinet like Genelec. I also doubled the amount of Jute. Last is with double Jute and all the Polyfill I could fit. The pictures below are of the actual cabinet stuffing for a few runs.
1716183300663.png


I measured both the impedance and frequency response. I marked the position of the speaker carefully to get some level repeatability in the FR measurments.

Here is the FR in the cabinet with no stuffing:
1716184100930.png

The impedance trace shows resonances at 770Hz, 1kHz, 1.9kHz, and 6.9kHz. The 6.9 kHz is the classic cone breakup mode. The others are less clear.

Looking at the distortion of the driver in empty cabinet, the 6.9kHz breakup mode shows ramifications in the distortion, with a peak in 3rd order HD at 6.9kHz / 3 = 2.3kHz, 5th order peak at 6.9kHz / 5 = 1.38kHz, 7th order peak at 6.9kHz / 7 = 986Hz. etc...

1716185697166.png


Let's see how this changes with damping:
1716185059873.png

Once you line the cabinet, the resonance frequency response irregularities at 1kHz and 1.9kHz go away. Jute or Polyfill, even stuffed to the gills doesn't dramatically change the response. Double stuffing the cabinet with Jute and Polyfill did reduce the bass by 1dB below resonance, not exactly a good trade for no improvement in midrange performance.

Looking at the distortion with single layer of Jute, you can see the resonances at 1kHz and 1.9kHz clean up in the 2nd HD trace, the odd order HD components are mostly the same though.
1716185769392.png


This makes sense, the cabinet is 7 inches deep, and 4 inches wide, the Jute is enough to break up the standing wave. Note, this is not radiation through the driver's membrane as you assert. That occurs too, but is not evident in the measurements, i.e. is so small it should be ignored. So your assertion about resonances from broadcast through the driver makes no sense, and the actual resonances due to cabinet reflections are tamed with minimal treatment alone.

None of the treatments make any difference in distortion performance above single layer of Jute or Polyfill:
1716186068042.png


None of the treatments make a difference in midrange impedance resonances compared to single layer of Jute or Polyfill:
1716186185165.png

Stuffing amount and type does affect the woofer/box resonance at 118Hz, lowering the impedance peak and slightly lowering the system resonance as predicted (see for example Vance Dickason's Cookbook, or any box simulator). You can see that the game of lowering the bass resonance by overstuffing is counteracted by lowering of system efficiency after more than single layers are applied, so the often-repeated statements about 'improved bass performance' with large amounts of stuffing is also a fantasy. Somehow that myth needs to be put to rest as well.

So no, Genelec (and other manufacturers) aren't skimping or putting less than optimal amounts of stuffing when they line a cabinet with a single layer of jute or polyfill or whatever. That myth of the understaffed cabinet doesn't apply in this case. In fact, the Genelec is filled completely, and very tidy, which you don't seem to acknowledge. They are avoiding doing something silly that has no practical effect, even drawbacks. More stuffing doesn't improve sound, well designed cabinets improve the sound Minimal fill tame reflections. There is no magic in stuffing cabinets, despite what the unsupported statements around the internet says. And if the cabinet has a mechanical resonance, stuffing isn't going to fix it. And no, the sound leaking through the driver membrane isn't a dramatic effect that is audible. You are tossing ideas, but not measurements.

Lastly, here is a different cabinet I made, with a diffuser on one wall. It tames the mode between front and back of the cabinet, does nothing for the other dimensions' cancelations, and was a pain to build.
1716187182429.png

Tweaks like this are of no value, and distract from the already difficult task of making good speakers.
 
I think he means: why bother with beryllium at all?
I would agree. As long as the current tweeter design, both material and shape, is pistonic at audio frequencies Berillium has little if any advantage.

My only concern about "the ones" driver material wise is the mid cone and whether it is pistonic over its audible range or whether they rely on its damping to keep the magnitude of resonant peaks in check (as do most drivers of course).

The geometry and manufacture are evidently well considered and well understood by Genelec and suggestions from enthusiasts unlikely to reveal anything they haven't evaluated during their design studies.
 
I'm not sure if that's true, first breakup for aluminium or titanium is around 10khz. Don't forget the speaker is active with correction. Where beryllium it's around 16khz.
The breakup depends on dome geometry as well as material.

Whilst it is true the specific stiffness of most metals is almost identical, and Berillium and Boron are notable outliers but, for example, by anodising aluminium a stiffer outer coating is created and changing the shape and thickness of the dome also changes the resonant mode shapes and frequencies.
Aluminium is probably better than titanium because its lower density means in domes of the same weight the ally one will be thicker so be a bit geometrically stiffer (bending stiffness is proportional to thickness cubed). Berillium is certainly potentially better because of specific stiffness but an anodised aluminium dome of clever shape that pushes the first breakup out of the audio range it is good enough and much more practical from a manufacturing perspective. Magnesium could be good too but perhaps harder to prevent atmospheric corrosion.
 
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High stiffness to weight has other tradeoffs, the dotted line on the graph below is the 2908's of-axis response superimposed on the 2904's response. The Be dome in the 2908 beams more than the Textile dome.
It was the way in which sound was radiated by modal means by drivers outside their pistonic range which kicked off the development of the BMR from the NXT driver. Because its radiation is modal rather than pistonic over a big part of its frequency range a BMR driver has exceptionally wide dispersion.
 
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@MAB Thank you for the detailed measurements. It is real great to share your experiment and measurements. IMHO the case 5 from your measurement is a typical good case of using damping material for a midrange driver you should even use more or denser material to get a "perfect" result.

I used a driver, set the torque to 11:cool: which gives a repeatable seal.
Very clever and often overseen the importance of using a the same torque.

This makes sense, the cabinet is 7 inches deep, and 4 inches wide, the Jute is enough to break up the standing wave. Note, this is not radiation through the driver's membrane as you assert. That occurs too, but is not evident in the measurements, i.e. is so small it should be ignored. So your assertion about resonances from broadcast through the driver makes no sense, and the actual resonances due to cabinet reflections are tamed with minimal treatment alone.
The standing wave of the cabinet is transmitted through the cone to the outside by moving the whole cone or by some kind of bending waves of the cone. If you hypothetically don't have a cone the standing wave wouldn't escape to the outside since the cabinet transmits much less energy to the outside compared with the cone (in the mid frequencies).

Once you line the cabinet, the resonance frequency response irregularities at 1kHz and 1.9kHz go away. Jute or Polyfill, even stuffed to the gills doesn't dramatically change the response. Double stuffing the cabinet with Jute and Polyfill did reduce the bass by 1dB below resonance, not exactly a good trade for no improvement in midrange performance.
If you have a zoomed in look at the impedance measure you will see that a bigger amount of damping material will lower the remaining amount of the resonances in the midrange.
Yes you loose bass spl since you change the spring mass damper system of the driver plus cabinet. There definitely some trade offs if you have to use a midrange to lower frequencies.

In fact, the Genelec is filled completely, and very tidy, which you don't seem to acknowledge.
From having a look at the pictures it isn't much damping material and the not so effective polyester wool. If you can fit it in I would use much denser material in combination with polyester wool. Maybe my interpretation of the pictures is wrong, but I have seen a lot of very good midrange cabinets and typically they use more or different material.

Tweaks like this are of no value, and distract from the already difficult task of making good speakers.
Have you tested some of these variations in an AB or ABX test with eq to compensate for frequency response differences? From my experiments you can hear very small differences like the difference of stuffing you presented here and it gest better with more. Also the scientific thresholds for hearing resonances support my approach to use much heavy damping.
 
Now it sounds like soon there will be arguments on “why don’t use silver wires with better conductivity…”

Once the driver is out inside a box, the impedance change in the resonant frequency will be practically irrelevant…
 
@MAB Thank you for the detailed measurements. It is real great to share your experiment and measurements. IMHO the case 5 from your measurement is a typical good case of using damping material for a midrange driver you should even use more or denser material to get a "perfect" result.
But case #5 didn't improve one bit over runs #2, #3, or #4. #5 is an absurd amount of fill, it was a needless effort just to keep the wires from contacting the frame risking larger issues like buzzing. I appreciate your opinion, but the measurements don't support.
Very clever and often overseen the importance of using a the same torque.
Thanks. The important thing is the electric driver goes to eleven.;)
The standing wave of the cabinet is transmitted through the cone to the outside by moving the whole cone or by some kind of bending waves of the cone. If you hypothetically don't have a cone the standing wave wouldn't escape to the outside since the cabinet transmits much less energy to the outside compared with the cone (in the mid frequencies).
Putting aside this hypothetical, I just showed if this broadcast effect is real it is 100% insensitive to stuffing the cabinet, while other phenomena like cabinet standing waves are trivially tamed with a single layer of Jute or Polyfill. This is what I tested, and showed no evidence of this transmission or the ability to modulate such transmissions is evident.
If you have a zoomed in look at the impedance measure you will see that a bigger amount of damping material will lower the remaining amount of the resonances in the midrange.
No, they are in the noise on the Impedance, Frequency Response, and Distortion graphs. The only real change is the magnitude and frequency of the 113Hz system impedance peak.
Yes you loose bass spl since you change the spring mass damper system of the driver plus cabinet. There definitely some trade offs if you have to use a midrange to lower frequencies.
At least we agree on this!
From having a look at the pictures it isn't much damping material and the not so effective polyester wool.
No. I stuffed the box from realistic to massively overstuffed, not sure how you could characterize as such. And for sure the Polyfill is quite effective. One single layer of Jute or Polyfill tamed the internal standing waves. More filling fails to reduce the resonances further since there is effectively nothing left to eliminate. The Polyfill is actually very effective compared to the more dense Jute. In fact, the Polyfill has a larger impact on the system resonance than the Jute (as seen in the change in the 113Hz impedance peak). Saying "not so effective" in the face of evidence that it is actually quite effective, and more effective at changing system resonance.
If you can fit it in I would use much denser material in combination with polyester wool. Maybe my interpretation of the pictures is wrong, but I have seen a lot of very good midrange cabinets and typically they use more or different material.
Yes, I get the impression that your perception leads you to believe stuffing the heck out of the cabinet will eliminate hypothesized artifacts. You are interpreting the pictures 100% wrong. And misrepresenting the materials. And ignoring the measured results. The Jute is much denser than the Polyfill. They both eliminate the resonance. Nothing is left to eliminate. Yes, we have all seen fancy midrange cabinets with exotic treatments supposed to eliminate all sorts of generalized maladies, half of the HiFi industry seems intent on conjuring resonances and eliminating them with tweaks. Pages of advertisements extolling the elimination of some femto-resonance, with eye-watering pictures of said elimination technique. I am trying to tell you that seeing these cabinet treatments and measuring them are two totally different things. And that mundane filler materials like Polyfill work very well.
Have you tested some of these variations in an AB or ABX test with eq to compensate for frequency response differences? From my experiments you can hear very small differences like the difference of stuffing you presented here and it gest better with more. Also the scientific thresholds for hearing resonances support my approach to use much heavy damping.
No, I am not going to try to hear immeasurably small differences with my ears. It would be difficult enough to hear the difference between the empty cabinet and any one of these treatments.
 
@MAB You can hear resonances way below the spl of the pure tone playback as low as about -30dB! So the amplitude frequency response can easily hide relevant resonances by showing only minimal to no wiggles.
So what resolution of showing resonances do you expect to see in your amplitude frequency response? -10dB translates to an addition of +0.4dB, -15dB is about +0.1dB.

Impedance measurement on the other side typically have way higher resolution so that you can easily see small relevant resonances by zooming in, to better see the part from 500Hz to 4kHz where the small resonances occur. I would be very surprised if in your case the small amount of damping material is enough to suppress the resonances enough. And noise should only be an issue with zooming in to the extreme.
 
@MAB You can hear resonances way below the spl of the pure tone playback as low as about -30dB! So the amplitude frequency response can easily hide relevant resonances by showing only minimal to no wiggles.
So what resolution of showing resonances do you expect to see in your amplitude frequency response? -10dB translates to an addition of +0.4dB, -15dB is about +0.1dB.

Impedance measurement on the other side typically have way higher resolution so that you can easily see small relevant resonances by zooming in, to better see the part from 500Hz to 4kHz where the small resonances occur.
Which is why I took the impedance traces, and also to eliminate the uncertainty in mic placement.
I would be very surprised if in your case the small amount of damping material is enough to suppress the resonances enough. And noise should only be an issue with zooming in to the extreme.
You keep saying 'small amount'. I think you are mis-calibrated on this.
Here is extreme zoom in of the primary resonance at 1`kHz, the resonance is equivalently eliminated with any of the treatments I applied:

1716229220160.jpeg

This is a small cabinet, the driver physically interferes with most of the box modes one might imagine. It's no surprise. The differences here are so far down, they are in the noise and/or negligible.

Distortion is also a great way to see the presence of resonances, which is why I also included that. And those also show that just a small amount of material is needed to tame the box mode, the rest is just the normal damped oscillator of the box + driver, and the rest of these micro-resonances (for lack of a better word;)), are not relavant to real-world reproduction. Which explains why Genelec hasn't jammed more batting into the midrange cavity.:cool:
 
Which is why I took the impedance traces, and also to eliminate the uncertainty in mic placement.

You keep saying 'small amount'. I think you are mis-calibrated on this.
Here is extreme zoom in of the primary resonance at 1`kHz, the resonance is equivalently eliminated with any of the treatments I applied:

View attachment 370435
This is a small cabinet, the driver physically interferes with most of the box modes one might imagine. It's no surprise. The differences here are so far down, they are in the noise and/or negligible.

Distortion is also a great way to see the presence of resonances, which is why I also included that. And those also show that just a small amount of material is needed to tame the box mode, the rest is just the normal damped oscillator of the box + driver, and the rest of these micro-resonances (for lack of a better word;)), are not relavant to real-world reproduction. Which explains why Genelec hasn't jammed more batting into the midrange cavity.:cool:
Thanks for the zoomed in plot now we need a zoom in for the impedance only an not so much zoom in for the frequencies. Then you can see the effect of lowering the q and shifting the frequency lower with adding damping material. You can than calculate the corresponding spl and q of the resonance and compare it with the perception threshold for the center frequency. For the minimum jute you can even see the remaining resonance in the amplitude frequency response at about 850Hz.
 
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Thanks for the zoomed in plot now we need a zoom in for the impedance only an not so much zoom in for the frequencies.
Oh good grief, that is the impedance plot!!! Right hand scale on the REW plot, 7.3 to 8.3 Ohms.
Then you can see the effect of lowering the q and shifting the frequency lower with adding damping material. You can than calculate the corresponding spl and q of the resonance and compare it with the perception threshold for the center frequency. For the minimum jute you can even see the remaining resonance in the amplitude frequency response at about 850Hz.
No, you misinterpreted the plot I posted. And there are no differences in resonances at in the impedance plot or any other plot in those smaller resonances at the other frequencies. The real big resonances like the actual breakup mode are what should be focused on, not the stuffing. Funny you talking about all of this resonance stuff in reference to this particular Genelec speaker. You are running wild!
 
My only concern about "the ones" driver material wise is the mid cone and whether it is pistonic over its audible range or whether they rely on its damping to keep the magnitude of resonant peaks in check (as do most drivers of course).
IIRC Jonte Knif measured this, let me see if I can find it again. I'll edit when I do.

EDIT:

It's pistonic over its passband, but apparently the mid has quite the breakup mode around 6k and that shows as a H3 peak around 2k.
 
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