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Genelec 8351B Review (Studio Monitor)

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amirm

amirm

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The official Genelec measurements don't show it, which is what got me curious. Maybe someone from Genelec could comment(forget the usernames here)? Not a huge deal at all. I'm more just curious.
Both genelec and I had some guesses but nothing firm to report. Could be chamber calibration issue at their end, too low a temp in room on my side, etc. Takes too much effort to resolve such a tiny variation.
 

richard12511

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Both genelec and I had some guesses but nothing firm to report. Could be chamber calibration issue at their end, too low a temp in room on my side, etc. Takes too much effort to resolve such a tiny variation.

Agreed it's not really worth the effort. Just thought it was odd that it differed from the 8341.
 

Maiky76

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@Maiky76 can you generate your LW and PIR(score) based EQs on this speaker? I know the individual values for my speakers are already calibrated, but I'm interested in what the PIR(score) based spin looks like side by side with the default spin, mainly the overall slopes.


Hi,

Here is my take on the EQ although this speaker does NOT need *anechoic* EQ.

The raw data with corrected ER and PIR:

Score no EQ: 7.05
With Sub: 8.4

Spinorama with no EQ:
  • LF aside nothing (maybe related to measurements) to report
  • Nitpicking, there is a resonance and the frequency response could be smoother
  • Great engineering
  • We use this as a noise (point) source with no EQ at work, miles better than the 1032 we also have.
  • At very high level the top end might be a bit "pointy" for the lack of better word.
Genelec 3051B No EQ spinorama.png

Directivity:
Better and wider sweet spot than many (coaxial).
Genelec 3051B 2D surface Directivity Contour Only Data.png

Genelec 3051B LW better data.png


EQ design:

I have generated two EQs. The APO config files are attached.
  • The first one, labelled, LW is targeted at making the LW flat
  • The second, labelled Score, starts with the first one and adds the score as an optimization variable.
  • The EQs are designed in the context of regular stereo use i.e. domestic environment, no warranty is provided for a near field use in a studio environment although the LW might be better suited for this purpose.
  • It this case the EQ score is very close to the out-of the box tuning

Score EQ LW: 6.9 -> the score is not part of the optimization process just a fitting for the LW regardless of the rest
with sub: 8.2

Score EQ Score: 7.3
with sub: 8.5

Code:
Genelec 3051B APO EQ LW 96000Hz
May252021-114401

Preamp: -1.6 dB

Filter 1: ON PK Fc 27.8 Hz Gain 0 dB Q 1.01
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 76.7 Hz Gain 1.15 dB Q 2.28
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 212 Hz Gain 0.83 dB Q 2.7
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 216 Hz Gain -0.8 dB Q 0.8
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 2476 Hz Gain 1.17 dB Q 1.95
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 12155 Hz Gain 1.13 dB Q 0.77

Genelec 3051B APO EQ Score 96000Hz
May252021-114212

Preamp: -1.7 dB

Filter 1: ON HPQ Fc 28 Hz Gain 0 dB Q 1.02
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 76 Hz Gain 1.24 dB Q 2.23
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 210.5 Hz Gain 0.84 dB Q 2.81
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 223.5 Hz Gain -0.86 dB Q 0.68
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 1591 Hz Gain 1.02 dB Q 4.88
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 2861 Hz Gain 0.92 dB Q 6.03
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 3734 Hz Gain -0.43 dB Q 1.69
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 21842 Hz Gain 0.37 dB Q 0.49

Genelec 3051B EQ Design.png

Spinorama EQ LW
Genelec 3051B LW EQ spinorama.png


Spinorama EQ Score
Genelec 3051B Score EQ spinorama.png


Zoom PIR-LW-ON
Genelec 3051B Zoom.png


Regression - Tonal
Genelec 3051B Regression-Tonal.png


Radar no EQ vs EQ score
No improvements: this speaker does NOT need *anechoic* EQ.
Genelec 3051B Radar.png


The rest of the plots is attached.
 

Attachments

  • Genelec 3051B APO EQ LW 96000Hz.txt
    343 bytes · Views: 98
  • Genelec 3051B APO EQ Score 96000Hz.txt
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  • Genelec 3051B Vertical 3D Directivity data.png
    Genelec 3051B Vertical 3D Directivity data.png
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  • Genelec 3051B Horizontal 3D Directivity data.png
    Genelec 3051B Horizontal 3D Directivity data.png
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  • Genelec 3051B Raw Directivity data.png
    Genelec 3051B Raw Directivity data.png
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  • Genelec 3051B Normalized Directivity data.png
    Genelec 3051B Normalized Directivity data.png
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  • Genelec 3051B Reflexion data.png
    Genelec 3051B Reflexion data.png
    215.6 KB · Views: 104
  • Genelec 3051B LW data.png
    Genelec 3051B LW data.png
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  • Genelec 3051B 2D surface Directivity Contour Data.png
    Genelec 3051B 2D surface Directivity Contour Data.png
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  • Genelec 3051B 3D surface Vertical Directivity Data.png
    Genelec 3051B 3D surface Vertical Directivity Data.png
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  • Genelec 3051B 3D surface Horizontal Directivity Data.png
    Genelec 3051B 3D surface Horizontal Directivity Data.png
    446.7 KB · Views: 97

richard12511

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Hi,

Here is my take on the EQ although this speaker does NOT need *anechoic* EQ.

The raw data with corrected ER and PIR:

Score no EQ: 7.05
With Sub: 8.4

Spinorama with no EQ:
  • LF aside nothing (maybe related to measurements) to report
  • Nitpicking, there is a resonance and the frequency response could be smoother
  • Great engineering
  • We use this as a noise (point) source with no EQ at work, miles better than the 1032 we also have.
  • At very high level the top end might be a bit "pointy" for the lack of better word.
View attachment 131845
Directivity:
Better and wider sweet spot than many (coaxial).
View attachment 131853
View attachment 131846

EQ design:

I have generated two EQs. The APO config files are attached.
  • The first one, labelled, LW is targeted at making the LW flat
  • The second, labelled Score, starts with the first one and adds the score as an optimization variable.
  • The EQs are designed in the context of regular stereo use i.e. domestic environment, no warranty is provided for a near field use in a studio environment although the LW might be better suited for this purpose.
  • It this case the EQ score is very close to the out-of the box tuning

Score EQ LW: 6.9 -> the score is not part of the optimization process just a fitting for the LW regardless of the rest
with sub: 8.2

Score EQ Score: 7.3
with sub: 8.5

Code:
Genelec 3051B APO EQ LW 96000Hz
May252021-114401

Preamp: -1.6 dB

Filter 1: ON PK Fc 27.8 Hz Gain 0 dB Q 1.01
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 76.7 Hz Gain 1.15 dB Q 2.28
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 212 Hz Gain 0.83 dB Q 2.7
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 216 Hz Gain -0.8 dB Q 0.8
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 2476 Hz Gain 1.17 dB Q 1.95
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 12155 Hz Gain 1.13 dB Q 0.77

Genelec 3051B APO EQ Score 96000Hz
May252021-114212

Preamp: -1.7 dB

Filter 1: ON HPQ Fc 28 Hz Gain 0 dB Q 1.02
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 76 Hz Gain 1.24 dB Q 2.23
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 210.5 Hz Gain 0.84 dB Q 2.81
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 223.5 Hz Gain -0.86 dB Q 0.68
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 1591 Hz Gain 1.02 dB Q 4.88
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 2861 Hz Gain 0.92 dB Q 6.03
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 3734 Hz Gain -0.43 dB Q 1.69
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 21842 Hz Gain 0.37 dB Q 0.49

View attachment 131843
Spinorama EQ LW
View attachment 131839

Spinorama EQ Score
View attachment 131841

Zoom PIR-LW-ON
View attachment 131844

Regression - Tonal
View attachment 131842

Radar no EQ vs EQ score
No improvements: this speaker does NOT need *anechoic* EQ.
View attachment 131838

The rest of the plots is attached.

Thanks for running that. You're right that they don't need it. I was curious to see if the PIR based EQ would shelve the treble down a bit, but it doesn't. Seems like the slope is already close to perfect.
 

Sebastiaan de Vries

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Thank you for the review Amirm.

Great to finally see those detailed measurements of the 8351B's
Since I own five of them in a 5.2 surround setup, partnered with a Trinnov Altitude-32, I will address some questions I've seen circulating.

Before I dive into that, some general comments, I think it is not entirely fair to compare the 8351B's with the Revel salon-2's there both are designed for different scenario's (and at the same time have similarities in scientific approach).

Directivity
The 8351B's are designed with a narrow but controlled directivity in mind, which fits the objective in a control room on a mixing desk. This enables the engineer to focus on every detail in the mix and allows for educated mix decisions.
The debate between wide dispersion or narrow dispersion will never end, and I believe there isn't better or worse but a matter of preference and application.
Most important is that the directivity is controlled, whether it is wide or narrow. For that reason, those designs focussed on controlled directivity (Revel, KEF, Kii, D&D, Genelec) are considered next-level designs and should yield excellent results in the proper setup.

My take and preferences: I don't wish to hear the reflections of my room to create this live feeling. Simple because my room's reverb and decay times will always be the same with every recording. This implies that the same sauce will be applied to all content. I don't wish to replicate a live performance in my living room. I want to re-produce the control-room experience of the mix engineer at home. I prefer to hear the captured ambiance and reverb times of the original record. to me that gives me the illusion of being present at the event.

8351B subjective sound
Personally, I like the controlled narrow directivity of the Genelecs. Amirm is right; the Genelecs will not give you this live-like presentation as some other designs (this perception changes dramatically when you add the chest-feeling impact of a quality subwoofer system).

What the Genelecs do is much more appealing to me. They present a "window" inside the recording. Inside this window, every single sound has its razor-focused location in 3D space. The Genelec's always pursuit me to close my eyes, and in no time, I am transferred into the mix bubble. It is a fantastic experience every time again.

The Genelecs are not made for casual listening. They draw too much attention to details for casual listening. They are too focused in presentation for live-sound illusion as well, live sound has more diffusion to it. To me, these are all positives and the reason why I choose them.

The best way to describe it is like you have bright halogen light beams in a dark space pointing upwards. Inside this light ray, you see a beam of environmental dust particles.

When shifting from two-channel to 5.2 surround, they offer a holographic bubble of the movie scene. You don't hear sound coming from speakers. You are in it!
I believe the Trinnov excellent way of processing and room optimizing in the time-domain combined with the controlled directivity has everything to do with this. Pans from left to right or front to back are seamless. The perception of height and depth is surreal.

Sub-woofers
Stand-alone, the 8351B sound remarkably precise and holographic and are therefore, a perfect mixing tool in the studio. The low-end is accurate and goes relatively deep for a box this size. However, it is undoubately a compact system and more made for precision than for big impact.

In my humble opinion, they must be combined with a solid subwoofer system with optimized crossover settings and time alignment to transform them to a whole new level. When you do this correctly, they become an extensive sounding system. The result is a system that breaths and is tremendously dynamically effortless. Betters all passive big floorstanders I've ever owned.

In my current setup, the 8351B's are combined with two SVS PC13 Ultra cylinder subwoofers. The crossover is at 85Hz with an 8th order L/R crossover. 85Hz is chosen for optimal response tailored to my room. I can imagine that when combined with the W371A's, a similar or better experience happens, with the benefits of extended directivity control and active room modal compensation (depending on the mode you choose)

Trinnov
The benefits of the 8351Bs controlled directivity have shown their merits partnered with the Trinnov altitude-32. This is the only speaker where I could let the Trinnov correct aggressively and precisely (as opposed to the much milder correction settings by default) without negative (hearable) artifacts.

In Trinnov's "Advanced Settings" tab:
  • Resolution of Energy Response: 1/24 octave for IIR & FIR (1/3 octave by default)
    • Typically, this high resolution of correction provides a perceived "too processed" sound, and it didn't sound good on my previous Magnepans MG20.7's. However, on the 8351B's, it sounds seamless and natural. With these settings, they sound even smoother and more spacious (bigger and increased depth).
  • Number of IIR filters: 50 (default 20)
    • This increases the amount of IIR filters for the bass correction. Bass gets more precise, clean, and tactile with this setting. Almost like quality headphones precision.
  • IIR filters maximum Frequency: 200Hz (default 150Hz)
  • FIR filter length: 300ms (default 100ms)
I don't recommend using multiple correction systems in tandem. Let the Trinnov be the center of all controls and correct and integrate all speakers, including the subs.

There have been some talks about the phase linearity of the 8351B's. It is debatable if we are sensitive to this, but for what's worth it, the Trinnov does linearize the phase response of the 8351B's above 200Hz. (see screenshot). Which could be regarded as a benefit using the Trinnov room optimizer, at the cost of increased latency. This shouldn't be a problem for home use, where most Blu-ray players can compensate for this delay. For studio usage that is another story, and this kind of delays are undesirable in this application.

I believe I don't have the latest firmware update on the 8351Bs. In the next round of re-measuring and correcting my room with the Trinnov, I will update the firmware (if there is indeed one) and report back if there is any change in the measured phase-response.

With multi subs, if you have spare channels on your Trinnov, I recommend configure them as a summed mono system. Correct each sub's delay times individually (the trinnov can accurately measure this) and then let the optimizer linearize the combined summed response. There are some tricks in the Trinnov to do this. I can help offline with this; please send me a PM for that (to keep this topic relevant to the Genelecs)

If you have the budget and the choice, go with the Altitude-32 instead of the Altitude-16, for the sole reason that the Altitude-32 can feed the Genelecs digital directly with AES/EBU.

Feeding the 8351B digitally directly improves the level of resolution, cleanness, and imaging.

The transition from analog to digital feed was not subtle, and I got treated with a level of resolution I've never experienced before.

That is not to say the analog inputs of the Genelecs aren't transparent. There is more to it. It isn't only the ADC and pre-amp stage of the 8351B's inputs you omit but also the source's DAC and analog output. Basically, you bypass the whole chain of DAC > analog output stage > pre-amp analog input > ADC.

ISS Sleep mode
Even if you don't use the Genelecs room correction system, the GLM kit is a must to have. Not only do you need it for the firmware updates, but this is the only way to adjust and optimize the ISS sleep mode. In some cases, adjustments are required to make it work well.

Multiple users reported that ISS doesn't work well with AES signals. That depends on how you look at it. In AES input mode, It doesn't work in the sense that ISS doesn't get triggered by silence in the audio content. They go to sleep when the AES signal is removed (when you switch off your source). I actually prefer this way, to avoid the risk of the surround channels goes to sleep in prolonging silent scenes in movies.

In my scenario, this is perfect. When the Trinnov switch on, the Genelecs turn on by receiving the AES data stream. When the Trinnov goes off, the Genelec's go to sleep after 2 minutes (programmed by the GLM kit). All just with one button.

Without GLM by default, the 8351B switches automatically between AES or Analog inputs, and therefore ISS is triggered by both inputs. Initially, this caused some issues in my setup, that some of the five channels got triggered by something picked up by the analog inputs and, as a result, didn't go into sleep mode.

This was solved by doing the following in the GLM software:
  • Select the AES/EBU input as ONLY input (disables the analog inputs)
  • Set the timer on 2 minutes to go into sleep mode
  • Additionally, one can change the sensitivity, but that doesn't make any difference in the AES/EBU mode.
Conclusion:
I can highly recommend the 8351B's for home usage under the condition that they are matched with a quality subwoofer system and solid alignment of crossover and time. That implies that if you go outside the GLM ecosystem with non-Genelec subwoofers, you have to use something like DIRAC, mini DSP, or a Trinnov to implement this successfully.

They aren't for everyone, but they are for those who crave absolute accuracy, precision, and focus. They would be the perfect tool to analyze and unravel music and recordings.

The 8351Bs are marvels of engineering and represent the new era of loudspeaker design, where excellent acoustic design is paired with DSP to overcome frequency, directivity, and time-domain non-linearities. This is in a compact and in my opinion beautiful looking package. They partner very well with a Trinnov, and fed digital is a match made in heaven.
 

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XpanD

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@Sebastiaan de Vries

thanks for the detailed description, it clarifies many things.

Do the Trinnov has as many AES/EBU outputs
or
just one AES/EBU can send the data for all the 8351s ?

AES/EBU has two channels on it per cable, which I believe is broken out from a digital AES59 breakout cable in the Trinnovs. You generally connect a cable to the first speaker, select the first channel (on the speaker itself), and then loop through to the second speaker and select the second channel on there. Cuts down quite significantly on wiring in bigger setups!
 
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Sparky

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I have a random question.

I've bought a pair of white 8341's in white but can only get the 8000 series stands in black.
I plan to have them sprayed white but I don't know the actual white colour grade.

I don't suppose anybody knows this?
 

Olius

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I have a random question.

I've bought a pair of white 8341's in white but can only get the 8000 series stands in black.
I plan to have them sprayed white but I don't know the actual white colour grade.

I don't suppose anybody knows this?

You mean the Genelec 8000-325 stands? They are available in both black and white.
 

Frank Dernie

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And yet at the same time, perhaps the modern UNpopularity of symphonies, operas, unamplified jazz etc. indicates why most people today might prefer medium beam widths from speakers (instead of wide): they sound better for “amplified” style music like EDM, rock, etc. at the expense of the realism of “unamplified” style music.

So I do wonder if the difference in preferences here is explained by the fact many people today may never have actually heard (or simply don’t care for) real instruments or voices performed professionally without amplification in a space with good acoustics? Not that there’s anything wrong with that I guess, but it reflects I suppose a dying type of live music,
My opinion is the opposite.
I mainly listen to classical music and all my visits to concerts, and recordings, have been of unamplified instruments and voices over the last 20 or 30 years and I prefer narrower directivity because the wide directivity add too much listening room acoustics over the recording venue acoustics.
It can be a pleasant artefact if the off axis response of the speaker is OK but it is a euphonic addition, not part of the recording.
It may be "nice" but it isn't accurate.
 

Sparky

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You mean the Genelec 8000-325 stands? They are available in both black and white.
I know but I'm in England and the only stock anywhere is black so I'll have to spray them.
 

Olius

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I know but I'm in England and the only stock anywhere is black so I'll have to spray them.

Wouldn't the same dealers that stock the black ones be able to get you white ones? The wait might be longer but to me that still seems less cumbersome than getting hold of the colour code, finding matching spray paint and spraying them yourself. That's what I would do anyway :)

BTW I realise I'm currently not answering your question. You probably know something I don't.
 
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Sebastiaan de Vries

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@Sebastiaan de Vries

thanks for the detailed description, it clarifies many things.

Do the Trinnov has as many AES/EBU outputs
or
just one AES/EBU can send the data for all the 8351s ?

There are two ways of doing it and the Trinnov has some traits to know in advance before you end up searching like crazy, which I will share below.
  1. You need a DB25 AES/EBU breakout cable. However the standard Tascam norm, has 8 digital inputs and 8 digital outputs in one connector. The Trinnov diverts from the Tascam norm, and instead provides 16 outputs in one connector. This might be hard to find from the general pro-audio store. Instead I soldered mine myself.
  2. To avoid searching like crazy why you don’t get any output on channel 9, by default Trinnov send out ch1-8 and 17-24 through the AES/EBU outputs. Once know this it is easy to assign the speaker to the correct designator in the Trinnov speaker setup.
  3. As XpanD mentioned, you can feed one AES cable to one speaker and pass through to the second Genelec. (Don’t forget to assign each speaker on the Genelec either A of B channel, either on the back panel but preferably in GLM and disable the analog inputs
  4. I opted for one AES feed per speakers, since this was easier in cable management for my 5.2 setup.
How I managed that is indicated in the attached diagrams I made, including the correct DB25 diagram for the Trinnov altitude-32
 

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Sparky

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Wouldn't the same dealers that stock the black ones be able to get you white ones? The wait might be longer but to me that still seems less cumbersome than getting hold of the colour code, finding matching spray paint and spraying them yourself. That's what I would do anyway :)

BTW I realise I'm currently not answering your question. You probably know something I don't.

Hehehe.

I was told by the Genelec stockist I dealt with that the White were on back order with no date on when they would become available.
It's not the end of the world to have to have them professionally sprayed.
I'm sure they'll come out lovely. :cool:
 

daftcombo

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Lol... I knew someone would notice these... They are just weight to hold them in place. My Pi and the GLM kit boxes are very lightweight... The cables sometimes will be too heavy for then when hanging behind. These are older audio vibration “tweaks” leftovers from previous times... The vibration soft disks under the 8330A do have a subtle subjective effect IMO...
I use speaker counter spikes for that matter (for instance on the Little Bear MC2). Only place they are useful. ;)
 

Trell

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Hehehe.

I was told by the Genelec stockist I dealt with that the White were on back order with no date on when they would become available.
It's not the end of the world to have to have them professionally sprayed.
I'm sure they'll come out lovely. :cool:

You could try emailing Genelec support to give them the color code for their stands. In my short experience they've been quite helpful.
 

Sparky

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You could try emailing Genelec support to give them the color code for their stands. In my short experience they've been quite helpful.
Thanks, I'll do just that. :)
 

Sparky

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Looking at their online RAL colour chart, they look to be RAL 9010 - Pure White.
 

galanakop

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I would like your opinion about bartok dcs
https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/dcs-bartok
I am waiting for the 8351b together with 2x 7370 + GLM as well as the roon nucleus, and I will play all these with bartok.
A friend has bartok, and he runs the active atc 50asl, and really the erotic one. In my case with the genelec series it would be just as efficient ??? to play properly. Finally what applies ???
 
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