Genelec 8351B Review (Studio Monitor)

[Tangband]

Nope, this is not something I'll spend money on to buy new cables, especially as I don't believe there will be any difference except for what I wrote earlier. What I've done is to switch, using GLM, between analogue and digital input (with cables unconnected) and could not hear any difference in self-noise.

Ok, just sayin that you should try it .

 

[sarumbear]

I find it interesting that nobody is interested with the inbuilt DAC of the Genelec speakers. We have more than a million total views on DACs but so far I have not seen anyone doing a comparison of the digital vs analogue input of a Genelec speaker.

 

[Gene LeClair]

I find it interesting that nobody is interested with the inbuilt DAC of the Genelec speakers. We have more than a million total views on DACs but so far I have not seen anyone doing a comparison of the digital vs analogue input of a Genelec speaker.

The analog signal gets converted to digital anyway, so if anything, it should be worse than digital input. I'm not sure if any measurements could tell the difference, if there is any.

 

[Trell]

The analog signal gets converted to digital anyway, so if anything, it should be worse than digital input. I'm not sure if any measurements could tell the difference, if there is any.

@Thomas Lund (employee at Genelec) have some posts related to this in the Hiss List thread.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/hiss-list-s-r.18050/post-781957:

>>>
Agreed. However, monitor self-noise should not be thought of as system noise. Ultimate stage gain control in active monitors is typically a more determining factor, and it provides the best chance of keeping overall noise and distortion low. Dynaudio’s Air series were probably the first to offer this important quality, considering a complete, active monitoring system. The feature is also available across all Genelec “SAM” models (82/83 series etc.). Other manufacturers may have it, too.

As an exampe, default analog sensitivity in Genelecs is 100 dB SPL@1 m for 0 dBu, which is generally much too sensitive in today’s pro environments. The finest DA converters have around 20 bits of performance (disregarding marketing hype for a moment), and a max output level in excess of +20 dBu. If you don’t reduce input sensitivity, DACs are still idling when the monitors are clipping. Also, noise is up, and 4-5 bits of performance is lost. If system gain control furthermore is performed in the digital domain, upstream of the DAC, at normal listening level, another 4 bits of DAC performance may have been thrown away.

The best place for system gain control (“volume”) is inside the active monitors, especially when interfacing is analog. With such gain control, 8341s can actually be used as headphones, without a noise to be heard
<<<

 

[YSC]

The analog signal gets converted to digital anyway, so if anything, it should be worse than digital input. I'm not sure if any measurements could tell the difference, if there is any.

in theory it should be worse than pure digital input, but when speaker distortion is measured in % and the ADC/DAC is at 0.00x% I doubt it would make audiable difference. so if there's a new system from scratch, yea why not just get a full digital AES/EBU source. But if upstream streamer, dac is already in use, and you only upgrade to the Ones, I won't bother spending extra on the quality digital source. and if one goes on ebay for any digital source costing $50 it usually will be a dud... far worse than a few pass DAC->ADC on quality dac/adc..

 

[sarumbear]

Maybe in the fall.

Still waiting…to find out if both you and I have the best speakers or not

 

[Sparky]

I didn't consider the DAC inside my 8341's at all. But now I have, I'm going to reconsider buying a Holo Spring 3KTI as a replacement for my minidsp SHD as, well what's the point if the end result will always be that I'm hearing the DAC in the 8341's.

Have I got that right?

 

[Pearljam5000]

Is there any way to bypass the built in DAC?

 

[Sancus]

I find it interesting that nobody is interested with the inbuilt DAC of the Genelec speakers. We have more than a million total views on DACs but so far I have not seen anyone doing a comparison of the digital vs analogue input of a Genelec speaker.

I know it's what got the site started, but tbh, I find basic performance of electronics to be irrelevant. There's no evidence that the average DAC has any audible flaws at all, and the amplifier is going to be the bottleneck anyway in 99% of cases. It's nice to have the reviews just to see that products are not broken, but I don't really care about SINAD. I pick electronics for features first and just double check they're not horribly broken or something second.

Is there any way to bypass the built in DAC?

There would be literally 0 benefit to doing so as you can't bypass the amplifiers and I 100% guarantee the DAC performance is better than the amplifiers.

 

[echopraxia]

Is there any way to bypass the built in DAC?

No, nor should you ever want to. The way it uses multiple DACs (one for each driver) is part of what makes these speakers so exceptional. Look up how active digital DSP speakers work if you want to understand why.

I didn't consider the DAC inside my 8341's at all. But now I have, I'm going to reconsider buying a Holo Spring 3KTI as a replacement for my minidsp SHD as, well what's the point if the end result will always be that I'm hearing the DAC in the 8341's.

Have I got that right?

Yea it’s pointless to have a fancy DAC feeding into a Genelec digital speaker, since if you use the analog input it will just convert to digital first anyway (which technically adds a small amount of additional noise and distortion, though in practice it’s unlikely any human will be able to notice), then apply DSP (crossover for each driver as well as overall tuning), then DAC+AMP individually (one for each driver). This active DSP crossover design is part of what makes these speakers so amazing.

I find it interesting that nobody is interested with the inbuilt DAC of the Genelec speakers. We have more than a million total views on DACs but so far I have not seen anyone doing a comparison of the digital vs analogue input of a Genelec speaker.

Because it’s pointless and doesn’t matter, as long as the DAC and amps inside the speaker are sufficiently cleaner than the distortions introduced by the drivers — and they pretty much always are (aside from some cheap monitors with audible hiss/noise).

I have a Topping D90SE and Purifi 1ET400A amp, which are so close to perfection I bet there’s no way the DAC and amps inside the Genelec 8361A even come close to them. But the 8361A is still a better speaker than virtually any passive speaker I could power with the Topping and Purify (with maybe a small handful of exceptional contenders).

The reason is quite simple: such DACs and amps are a pointless exercise in pursuit of perfection that doesn’t actually matter when the speaker drivers of even the best speakers in the world will be introducing 100x+ more distortion than even mediocre DACs and amps anyway.

And I say that as a happy owner of these world‘s best or second-best DACs and amps — it’s a waste of money, generally done more for peace of mind that whatever passive speaker is powered will operate at its full potential, than any truly rational reason.

With active digital speakers like these, not only do you have no choice to bypass the internal DACs and amps, but you’re better off that way. The engineers of these speakers know what they’re doing. Rest assured the sound quality will be pretty much unrivaled by any passive speaker at any price (with very few if any exceptions) connected to the world’s best DAC and amps of any price.

 

[w3ua]

Another reason why you shouldn't even think about messing up with internal DACs of active digital speakers -- most of them are bi-amped, so crossovers are usually part of DACs. That produces much better coherence of midrange and high frequencies, virtually unachievable with traditional post-amplification crossovers. Genelec is known for their excellent design, so I can hardly expect any home style tweaks can mimic their state of the art sound. In my theater I keep all audio in digital domain all the way to the speakers, and I'm pretty happy with the sound.

 

[Pearljam5000]

It would be interesting if Neumann someday will release a coaxial to compete with the Ones

 

[fredstuhl]

The engineers of these speakers know what they’re doing.

And yet, you know better than them in that using the speakers with their analogue input would make them sound audibly inferior than with „high quality“ digital sources, even making them a waste of money.

 

[echopraxia]

And yet, you know better than them in that using the speakers with their analogue input would make them sound audibly inferior than with „high quality“ digital sources, even making them a waste of money.

Your sentence is so unclearly phrased that I have no idea what you’re actually trying to say. Nothing I‘ve said disagrees with Genelec’s engineers. Feel free to point out anything specific you’d like to discuss.

 

[Sparky]

Yea it’s pointless to have a fancy DAC feeding into a Genelec digital speaker, since if you use the analog input it will just convert to digital first anyway (which technically adds a small amount of additional noise and distortion, though in practice it’s unlikely any human will be able to notice), then apply DSP (crossover for each driver as well as overall tuning), then DAC+AMP individually (one for each driver). This active DSP crossover design is part of what makes these speakers so amazing.

Well said. I am though, using the coax digital output 1&2 of the SHD to a 75 ohm to 110 ohm converter via AES/EBU to feed them so no additional A/D/A conversion for me. Does your comment still apply?

 

[Frgirard]

No, nor should you ever want to. The way it uses multiple DACs (one for each driver) is part of what makes these speakers so exceptional. Look up how active digital DSP speakers work if you want to understand why.


Yea it’s pointless to have a fancy DAC feeding into a Genelec digital speaker, since if you use the analog input it will just convert to digital first anyway (which technically adds a small amount of additional noise and distortion, though in practice it’s unlikely any human will be able to notice), then apply DSP (crossover for each driver as well as overall tuning), then DAC+AMP individually (one for each driver). This active DSP crossover design is part of what makes these speakers so amazing.


Because it’s pointless and doesn’t matter, as long as the DAC and amps inside the speaker are sufficiently cleaner than the distortions introduced by the drivers — and they pretty much always are (aside from some cheap monitors with audible hiss/noise).

I have a Topping D90SE and Purifi 1ET400A amp, which are so close to perfection I bet there’s no way the DAC and amps inside the Genelec 8361A even come close to them. But the 8361A is still a better speaker than virtually any passive speaker I could power with the Topping and Purify (with maybe a small handful of exceptional contenders).

The reason is quite simple: such DACs and amps are a pointless exercise in pursuit of perfection that doesn’t actually matter when the speaker drivers of even the best speakers in the world will be introducing 100x+ more distortion than even mediocre DACs and amps anyway.

And I say that as a happy owner of these world‘s best or second-best DACs and amps — it’s a waste of money, generally done more for peace of mind that whatever passive speaker is powered will operate at its full potential, than any truly rational reason.

With active digital speakers like these, not only do you have no choice to bypass the internal DACs and amps, but you’re better off that way. The engineers of these speakers know what they’re doing. Rest assured the sound quality will be pretty much unrivaled by any passive speaker at any price (with very few if any exceptions) connected to the world’s best DAC and amps of any price.

Your love makes you a little or even a lot exaggerate. I hope that genelec rewards you for your commercial activity.

 

[Trell]

Well said. I am though, using the coax digital output 1&2 of the SHD to a 75 ohm to 110 ohm converter via AES/EBU to feed them so no additional A/D/A conversion for me. Does your comment still apply?

You can’t bypass the DAC in the Genelec monitor.

 

[Gene LeClair]

The extra A/D is not a downside of these speakers, it's a feature. You want to have that! Bypass would be just silly.

This way you get the benefits of the digital side (=GLM) even when you are using (or forced to use) an analog source. Which is great!

Edited typo (A/D, not D/A/D)

 

[Trell]

The extra D/A/D is not a downside of these speakers, it's a feature. You want to have that! Bypass would be just silly.

This way you get the benefits of the digital side (=GLM) even when you are using (or forced to use) an analog source. Which is great!

There is no D/A/D in the Genelec monitors. If you are using the analogue input there is an analogue to digital conversion, and then a digital to analogue as for digital input.

 

[Gene LeClair]

There is no D/A/D in the Genelec monitors. If you are using the analogue input there is an analogue to digital conversion, and then a digital to analogue as for digital input.

Ups, yeah, typo. That's what I meant to say.