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Genelec 8351B Review (Studio Monitor)

Pearljam5000

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Theoretically if you sit really close to the monitors let's say 60 cm -100cm from them, and the room is is really bad and untreated, will that cancel any bad effects that the room might have on the sound?
 

dominikz

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Theoretically if you sit really close to the monitors let's say 60 cm -100cm from them, and the room is is really bad and untreated, will that cancel any bad effects that the room might have on the sound?
In my experience it doesn't help at all with room resonances below the transition / Schroeder frequency of the room; which are IME typically the worst offenders. At my desk I sit maybe ~70cm from speakers and have a huge narrow peak around 125Hz and a huge and wide dip before that (around 70-90Hz) - both very audible and quite nasty sounding :confused: It is really much more offending than any resonances I have in my living room, non-nearfield system. Thankfully we have relatively easy access to REW and PEQ these days :D

Above that I believe it might help in some cases, as the ratio of direct vs reflected sound should work in favour or direct sound.
 

Trell

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Theoretically if you sit really close to the monitors let's say 60 cm -100cm from them, and the room is is really bad and untreated, will that cancel any bad effects that the room might have on the sound?

Dude, you've been lusting for Genelec monitors for quite some time so why not try them out? I've a pair of 8330A along with a 7360A subwoofer that works very, very well in my lightly treated small office after using Genelec AutoCal/AutoPhase as desktop speakers.
 

Sancus

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Theoretically if you sit really close to the monitors let's say 60 cm -100cm from them, and the room is is really bad and untreated, will that cancel any bad effects that the room might have on the sound?

I don't have a ready citation for this, but I'm pretty sure due to the behaviour of longer wavelengths in a room, we hear the steady state of low frequencies moreso than separated direct sound/reflections. So basically the response you see on an in-room measurement with a single mic does reflect what you hear at low frequencies, but it DOESN'T reflect what you hear at higher frequencies. Hence why the advice is not to EQ higher frequencies to match a curve in the first place.

In any case, that means you cannot avoid room modes by sitting closer to a monitor, nope.
 

Trell

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I don't have a ready citation for this, but I'm pretty sure due to the behaviour of longer wavelengths in a room, we hear the steady state of low frequencies moreso than separated direct sound/reflections. So basically the response you see on an in-room measurement with a single mic does reflect what you hear at low frequencies, but it DOESN'T reflect what you hear at higher frequencies. Hence why the advice is not to EQ higher frequencies to match a curve in the first place.

In any case, that means you cannot avoid room modes by sitting closer to a monitor, nope.

As usual, it depends ;)
 

richard12511

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I believe we both have the same understanding.
My point is, in the control room of a recording studio, the monitors placed on the meterbridge of the mixing console and very close to the mix engineer. Combined with the dampened control room acoustics what you get is mostly a flat response without the typical down sloping curve you get when place a anechoic flat speaker in a typical living room with typical far field distances.

I am used to this kind of flat response and that might explain my preference.

My understanding is that a flat response at 1m should sound the same as a sloping response at 4m, as our brain actively alters the sound we "hear" based on the distance information it's getting. So, regardless of the position we are used to, in order for our brains to experience the same "neutral" sound, there should be an increasing slope with increasing distance. A flat response at 4m will sound painfully bright to the same brain that enjoys a flat response at 1m. I understand that we "hear through" the room and listening distance, and therefore most of us enjoy an anechoic neutral sound. Anechoic neutral will be mostly flat at 1m, but should be pretty sloped at 4m.

TBH, it is something that I question about GLM for eq'ing the 8351b at 3.5m+. Given that the speaker is already as anechoically neutral as it gets(best we've seen), I want to preserve that neutrality as much as possible. In the past, I've found the best way to do that (ime) is to aim for a bass line that splits the difference between the peaks and troughs. That doesn't tame the peaks as much, but it seems (to my ears) to better maintain the natural tonality of the speaker. GLM seems to knock the peaks down 90%, and because it doesn't touch the troughs, it kinda changes the tonality of the speaker to that of one who's tilted up anechoic on axis. I can see where it works perfect for near field(where our brain still expects a flat response), but I wonder if it's not why I end up having to bring the top end treble down a bit. There have been a couple h2h comparisons where people have found the 8351s to be too bright, and "only suitable for near field". I wonder if this has something to do with it? The other speaker ends up sounding more neutral, due to it having a more neutral in room slope.
 

richard12511

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In my understanding dr. Toole (and I'm assuming Harman) doesn't really advocate EQ-ing to any 'target curve' above the transition frequency - the curve(s) from dr. Toole's book often shared in this forum show the statistical average of in-room measurements of 'flat' measuring loudspeakers. So the 'Harman curve' is really a result of having a good loudspeaker measured in a room, rather than a target for EQ :)

Luckily GLM doesn't EQ above 500Hz or so, so you do still end up with some tilt.
 

Χ Ξ Σ

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After reading many of your comments I wonder if building materials is the prime suspect of preferences in target response.

I live in a house made of lumber and dry walls, a typical suburban single-family home in the US. Many of my audio buddies live in the cities in China and reside in condos and apartment buildings made of brick, mortar, concrete, and steel bar. I am not familiar with building acoustics, but my guess is that wooden houses are more absorbent and concrete buildings are more reflective. Their reverb characteristics should also be different. Some of my buddies mentioned that they can hear the "echo" of their hands clapping in their normal size room. I couldn’t recreate that in my house. From my personal experience visiting unfurnished homes back in China, I remember hearing echo/reverb quite easily. I have never heard such a thing when visiting unfurnished houses in the US.

I shared my downward tilted in-room response with my audio buddies and theirs with me. They thought I was a basshead because my target wasn't flat but tilted all the way up in the bass region. Interestingly enough, all of them were familiar with the downward tilted Harman and B&K targets, yet all of them chose to calibrate their systems to a flat target. Not all the way flat to 20kHz, of course, just flat to 1kHz or 2kHz and let the speakers took it from there. I tried the flat target at home and boy it sounded thin and bright to me. Admittedly I might be a basshead, but I believe the difference in building materials also plays a major role here.
 
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Χ Ξ Σ

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After reading many of your comments I wonder if building materials is the prime suspect of preferences in target response.

I live in a house made of lumber and dry walls, a typical suburban single-family home in the US. Many of my audio buddies live in the cities in China and reside in condos and apartment buildings made of brick, mortar, concrete, and steel bar. I am not familiar with building acoustics, but my guess is that wooden houses are more absorbent and concrete buildings are more reflective. Their reverb characteristics should also be different. Some of my buddies mentioned that they can hear the "echo" of their hands clapping in their normal size room. I couldn’t recreate that in my house. From my personal experience visiting unfurnished homes back in China, I remember hearing echo/reverb quite easily. I have never heard such a thing when visiting unfurnished houses in the US.

I shared my downward tilted in-room response with my audio buddies and theirs with me. They thought I was a basshead because my target wasn't flat but tilted all the way up in the bass region. Interestingly enough, all of them were familiar with the downward tilted Harman and B&K targets, yet all of them chose to calibrate their systems to a flat target. Not all the way flat to 20kHz, of course, just flat to 1kHz or 2kHz and let the speakers took it from there. I tried the flat target at home and boy it sounded thin and bright to me. Admittedly I might be a basshead, but I believe the difference in building materials also plays a major role here.
Or maybe their ears are burnt in by the Etymotic IEM...
 

dominikz

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In the past, I've found the best way to do that (ime) is to aim for a bass line that splits the difference between the peaks and troughs. That doesn't tame the peaks as much, but it seems (to my ears) to better maintain the natural tonality of the speaker.
What I tend to do is use the HF response (above 1kHz or so) to determine the approximate overall slope and level for the target in REW and then only EQ the peaks below 500-600Hz or so - so no boosts, just cuts. Sounds like GLM might be doing something similar :)
 
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theshade

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On axis they should be identical. I'm using the 8350 right now and I love them - save money and get the 8350. I got the 8351B specifically for use as my center channel speaker placed horizontally below my TV so I needed its top notch dispersion.

Can I ask if you will be using your 8050b's? The Genelec website says this "We do not recommend mixing Classic 8000 Series monitors with SAM™ Monitors. If the analogue input sensitivity of 8000 Series and SAM™ Series monitors are the same, Genelec SAM™ Monitors exhibit a slightly larger latency (< 5 ms) than 8000 Series monitors. Therefore Classic 8000 Series and SAM™ Series monitors should not be mixed in a stereo pair or multichannel setup." Did you ask genelec about this? I am thinking if I get a SAM series if I will be able to use my 8030c's as surrounds or will they be relegated to a pc system cause I could not mix them for home theater. Thanks!
 

Trell

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Can I ask if you will be using your 8050b's? The Genelec website says this "We do not recommend mixing Classic 8000 Series monitors with SAM™ Monitors. If the analogue input sensitivity of 8000 Series and SAM™ Series monitors are the same, Genelec SAM™ Monitors exhibit a slightly larger latency (< 5 ms) than 8000 Series monitors. Therefore Classic 8000 Series and SAM™ Series monitors should not be mixed in a stereo pair or multichannel setup." Did you ask genelec about this? I am thinking if I get a SAM series if I will be able to use my 8030c's as surrounds or will they be relegated to a pc system cause I could not mix them for home theater. Thanks!

If you use some kind of RoomEQ then the different delays should taken care of, though I would have matching pairs of monitors and even the center should be of the same type. A similar argument may be made for mixing Genelec Ones and the other SAM monitors as the Ones have a slightly longer delay.

https://support.genelec.com/hc/en-u...at-is-the-delay-latency-through-SAM-monitors-

Edit: Should find the post by a Genelec employee about this delay.
 
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Sancus

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If you use some kind of RoomEQ then the different delays should taken care of, though I would have matching pairs of monitors and even the center should be of the same type. A similar argument may be made for mixing Genelec Ones and the other SAM monitors as the Ones have a slightly longer delay.

https://support.genelec.com/hc/en-u...at-is-the-delay-latency-through-SAM-monitors-

Edit: Should find the post by a Genelec employee about this delay.

Ilkka stated the delay for 8351B is 3.1ms. Of course if you are using GLM it will automatically compensate for any delay discrepancies when it adjusts for distance.

If you're using the analog 8000 series then ofc as you say you'll need external room correction to set appropriate delays, but this is present in most AVRs.
 

Trell

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Ilkka stated the delay for 8351B is 3.1ms. Of course if you are using GLM it will automatically compensate for any delay discrepancies when it adjusts for distance.

If you're using the analog 8000 series then ofc as you say you'll need external room correction to set appropriate delays, but this is present in most AVRs.

I must have misremembered about the Ones having a longer delay than other SAM speakers.
 

StuartC

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From the information I've been able to find it appears that <10ms latency is effectively unnoticeable. I suspect an experiment could easily be done using room correction to "move" a speaker and increase latency until obviously distinguishable.
 

Spocko

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Can I ask if you will be using your 8050b's? The Genelec website says this "We do not recommend mixing Classic 8000 Series monitors with SAM™ Monitors. If the analogue input sensitivity of 8000 Series and SAM™ Series monitors are the same, Genelec SAM™ Monitors exhibit a slightly larger latency (< 5 ms) than 8000 Series monitors. Therefore Classic 8000 Series and SAM™ Series monitors should not be mixed in a stereo pair or multichannel setup." Did you ask genelec about this? I am thinking if I get a SAM series if I will be able to use my 8030c's as surrounds or will they be relegated to a pc system cause I could not mix them for home theater. Thanks!
Good question, I'll reach out to Trinnov about this.
 

Spocko

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Can I ask if you will be using your 8050b's? The Genelec website says this "We do not recommend mixing Classic 8000 Series monitors with SAM™ Monitors. If the analogue input sensitivity of 8000 Series and SAM™ Series monitors are the same, Genelec SAM™ Monitors exhibit a slightly larger latency (< 5 ms) than 8000 Series monitors. Therefore Classic 8000 Series and SAM™ Series monitors should not be mixed in a stereo pair or multichannel setup." Did you ask genelec about this? I am thinking if I get a SAM series if I will be able to use my 8030c's as surrounds or will they be relegated to a pc system cause I could not mix them for home theater. Thanks!
I asked them about the latency issue and was told that Trinnov processors account for the latency of each speaker during setup so it should not be a problem at all. You'll see similar latency issues with DSP enabled subwoofers.
 

Peluvius

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The 8351a was designed to work with a sub.
 
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