Genelec 8351B Review (Studio Monitor)

[Pearljam5000]

They are just too big and look awkward imo compared to for example 8351

They're not that big( with the 8040 and 8010 in these photos)

)

 

[stevenswall]

They replaced 8260A with 8361A

Correct, but the 8361 seems even worse compared to the 8260: The off axis response is even more ragged than other models of The Ones, not to mention the on axis, dispersion is more narrow.

Concerning those things, the other models of The Ones seem to do better.

If the 8351B or 8361 scored higher than an 8260 in a blind test or even with the calculated scores posted here, I'll rest my case, but so far it seems that smoother, wider off axis response and more bass extension bring scores up.

To replace a flagship product, I think the new one should beat or equal the former in every measurable way. You can't get away with just adding higher brightness to a phone and downgrading from OLED to LCD, and then saying it's better because one has more ram but a slightly worse CPU... Newness would be irrelevant. It would be inexcusable.

To a small extent, this is how I think of The Ones: Still waiting for one that is better than the 8260 in every measurable way, though I understand they have their own priorities and run their company well. Just feels like something is being missed when SPL seems to be the goal. It's like a mini-loudness war, but now with speakers instead of music production.

 

[amirm]

Can you plot excess group delay on axis?

Sure:

I left the pipeline delay in there so people can see the constant delay as well.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Correct, but the 8361 seems even worse compared to the 8260: The off axis response is even more ragged than other models of The Ones, not to mention the on axis, dispersion is more narrow.

Concerning those things, the other models of The Ones seem to do better.

If the 8351B or 8361 scored higher than an 8260 in a blind test or even with the calculated scores posted here, I'll rest my case, but so far it seems that smoother, wider off axis response and more bass extension bring scores up.

To replace a flagship product, I think the new one should beat or equal the former in every measurable way. You can't get away with just adding higher brightness to a phone and downgrading from OLED to LCD, and then saying it's better because one has more ram but a slightly worse CPU... Newness would be irrelevant. It would be inexcusable.

To a small extent, this is how I think of The Ones: Still waiting for one that is better than the 8260 in every measurable way, though I understand they have their own priorities and run their company well. Just feels like something is being missed when SPL seems to be the goal. It's like a mini-loudness war, but now with speakers instead of music production.

I asked Genelec about it on a different forum :
Can you explain the differences between 8260A and 8361A?"
Thank you for asking, it would be much faster to answer what is similar between them because that list is very short; the Iso-Pod rubber and the spring which holds it in place, to be exact. Everything else is different.

• Acoustical design has been changed from asymmetrical single woofer + coaxial combination to symmetrical dual woofer + coaxial design which puts all drivers on the same acoustical axis resulting perfect point source. Waveguide size has been increased to allow excellent directivity and precise imaging. Cabinet design allows both horizontal and vertical orientation.
• Reflex port has been fully redesigned to allow much higher low frequency output without the issues commonly related to ported designs.
• Dual racetrack-shaped woofer as well as coaxial driver design is completely new and improved in all aspects. All drivers are fully custom designed and manufactured in-house. Please see my earlier message about the updated coaxial driver design here: Genelec announces 8351B and 8361A coaxial monitors and W371A Adaptive Woofer System
• Amplifiers have much more power and are more efficient at the same time. Modern Class D amplifiers and switched mode power supplies are used in all three output channels for low power consumption and long life.
• Digital signal processing has been updated to have more calculation power and to provide high dynamic range with very low self-generated noise.

Quote:
"And why does the 8260 goes much lower than 8361(in the specs anyways)"

One of the few complaints we received from 8260 was related to its maximum SPL capability. Some users in difficult acoustical spaces and at longer listening distances commented that they could lit up the red clipping LED too soon with bass heavy content. We took this as a challenge and set up ourselves a goal with the 8361 - its maximum SPL needed to be 6 dB higher. As the outside dimensions of the cabinet were kept identical, so was the inside volume, we needed to produce the gain by designing better drivers, having more amplifier power delivered to them and slightly retuning the Helmholz frequency of the enclosure to reduce the low frequency extension by a few Hertz but at the same time to have much more output capability above it. Datasheet -6 dB extension is now 30 Hz instead of 23 Hz (remember, this is anechoic so typical room extension is better) and the maximum SPL capability is 118 dB instead of 113 dB. Should you feel that the sub-30 Hz in-room extension of the 8361 is not enough, you can always add a subwoofer, for example our 7380 which -6 dB point is at 16 Hz, or the W371 adaptive woofer stand which typical in-room extension is approx. 20 Hz.

 

[Sancus]

Just feels like something is being missed when SPL seems to be the goal. It's like a mini-loudness war, but now with speakers instead of music production.

Considering how many people on this very forum have had concerns with SPL capabilities of the Ones, and the fact that we already knew it was a real problem for Genelec's actual customers(studios), I'm not REALLY sure why you always feel the need to relitigate 8260 vs 83X1 in every other thread about Genelecs.

 

[kimmosto]

Sure:
...
I left the pipeline delay in there so people can see the constant delay as well.

Thanks amirm.
Also 8351B has phase linearisation stage according user manual, but obviously it was not enabled in your measurement. I've heard from a friend that some GLM version has a switch for enabling phase EQ stage, but I don't know is it published yet or just for R&D use. I have listened 8361A, and quite confident that better timing would be beneficial also for that model, though it was already stronger than 8260A.

 

[Purité Audio]

What ever became of the Genelec guy (he was not affiliated with the company, but anyone who has been on ASR for a while knows whom I'm talking about)? Did he leave ASR?

He can be found ranting on, formerly known as Gearslutz.
Keith

 

[Sprint]

My pleasure! For my purposes this is exactly as I had hoped - I'll be matching it to the Genelec 12" 7370A subwoofer so it could be used as full range and would have been a fairer fight vs the Salon 2 had I sent @amirm the subwoofer!

Will you be using a pair of 7370 or just one?

 

[Pearljam5000]

Correct, but the 8361 seems even worse compared to the 8260: The off axis response is even more ragged than other models of The Ones, not to mention the on axis, dispersion is more narrow.

Concerning those things, the other models of The Ones seem to do better.

If the 8351B or 8361 scored higher than an 8260 in a blind test or even with the calculated scores posted here, I'll rest my case, but so far it seems that smoother, wider off axis response and more bass extension bring scores up.

To replace a flagship product, I think the new one should beat or equal the former in every measurable way. You can't get away with just adding higher brightness to a phone and downgrading from OLED to LCD, and then saying it's better because one has more ram but a slightly worse CPU... Newness would be irrelevant. It would be inexcusable.

To a small extent, this is how I think of The Ones: Still waiting for one that is better than the 8260 in every measurable way, though I understand they have their own priorities and run their company well. Just feels like something is being missed when SPL seems to be the goal. It's like a mini-loudness war, but now with speakers instead of music production.

The 8260a are inferior.
Just audition the 8361 and see for your self

 

[StuartC]

I went with 8340 as LCR and 8330 as surrounds for my living room set up. I use a pair of SVS 12" subs. For 2K, I would have looked into KS Digital C88 but am not sure if it is available in the US. If you can increase your budget, the end game will be a pair of 8350 (non coaxial version of 8351) or a pair of KH310 and a sub of your choice. On an AB comparison in one of the nearby stores, I loved Genelec 8350 even though they were 2 way in comparison KH310 but the differences were not much. I could have happily lived with both of them. Then there is HEDD or ADAMs.

Out of curiosity, how do you power them all on/off? I'm keen to transition my surround setup to active speakers, but most don't have 12v triggers (from what I've seen anyway).

 

[Pearljam5000]

Out of curiosity, how do you power them all on/off? I'm keen to transition my surround setup to active speakers, but most don't have 12v triggers (from what I've seen anyway).

All Genelecs have auto on/off

 

[Ilkka Rissanen]

Sure:

View attachment 130197

I left the pipeline delay in there so people can see the constant delay as well.

Hello Amir,

For some reason your measurement above has ten times the bulk delay there is in reality. Correct bulk delay for 8351B is about 3.1 ms (for analogue input >1 kHz). Could you please amend your measurement?

 

[StuartC]

All Genelecs have auto on/off

This raises the question of sensitivity. In a surround application could they go to sleep and then wake up but with a delay to the output?

 

[Pearljam5000]

This raises the question of sensitivity. In a surround application could they go to sleep and then wake up but with a delay to the output?

The guy above you is the technical master from Genelec, you can ask him, sorry I don't know

 

[StuartC]

This raises the question of sensitivity. In a surround application could they go to sleep and then wake up but with a delay to the output?

@Ilkka Rissanen , if using a Genelec as a surround speaker is the auto sense functionality robust against quiet periods in film and music? i.e. it has a long enough debounce time not to switch off then suddenly on again when a soundtrack uses that channel

 

[echopraxia]

Is that true? I thought Salon 2 MSRP was $22K. 8351B($8K) + W371A($18K) is 26K. I bet the average Salon 2 buyer spends more than $4K on DAC and amps, let alone DSP. I'm sure it is less if you consider dealer discounts but well with the Salon 2 on the way out and the W371A brand new, that's not surprising.

Last year before price changes and the USD tanking, you could get the 8351B+W371A for just under $20K USD in Canada.

It’s hard to figure out a fair way to compare passive speakers that have been out for a while and have various deals from time to time, to relatively recent active speakers that are strictly price controlled in the US.

But as far as I can tell, it’s true that 8351B+W371A is significantly more expensive (~$10k more) then on-sale Salon2’s + good Hypex or Purifi amps. (Edit: Plus a good DAC which will range from $100 - $800 or so depending on how paranoid you want to be at reducing DAC distortion you know won’t likely be audible anyway). But it is hard to know which is more fair comparison: MSRP vs MSRP, or current “street price” of the Revels vs MSRP of price-controlled Genelec’s.

 

[echopraxia]

The Salon 2 is (was?) $22,000 ... amplifier to drive it nicely would put you at least at $24,000 ... You would need a DAC and you wouldn't have PEQ/DRC. OTOH the GLM is rather inexpensive at $300 ...

In these objectivist parts of the audiophile world, you’d have to be at least a little bit crazy to spend $22k in amplifiers to power $15-20k speakers, when we know it’s not going to make an audible difference other than total power delivery.

A few thousand for some good Hypex or Purifi amps is likely all you likely need. Several Salon2 owners even just use Benchmark AHB2 amps which aren’t nearly as powerful and are very happy with them and don’t run into the clipping indicator.

 

[Pearljam5000]

It’s hard to figure out a fair way to compare passive speakers that have been out for a while and have various deals from time to time, to relatively recent active speakers that are strictly price controlled in the US.

But as far as I can tell, it’s true that 8351B+W371A is significantly more expensive (~$10k more) then on-sale Salon2’s + good Hypex or Purifi amps. But it is hard to know which is more fair comparison: MSRP vs MSRP, or current “street price” of the Revels vs MSRP of price-controlled Genelec’s.

You also forgot the cost of the DAC

 

[Ilkka Rissanen]

@Ilkka Rissanen , if using a Genelec as a surround speaker is the auto sense functionality robust against quiet periods in film and music? i.e. it has a long enough debounce time not to switch off then suddenly on again when a soundtrack uses that channel

Hi,

You can adjust both sleep delay (2 min - 4 hours) and sensitivity (three steps) from the GLM.

 

[echopraxia]

Gosh, the Genelec 8351B is amazing -- arguably for US$10000 a pair it ought to be.

I don't need the high output of the Salon 2's. I really never listen at an average level above 70 dB though as a Classical music listener I need to allow 20 dB for dynamic head room; It seems to me that is no challenge for the 8351B's in my small-medium sized room.

So my only problem is to find something very like the 8351B's in performance but costing no more than US$2000. Any suggestions, folks?

It’s worth pointing out that Amir didn’t say the Salon2’s go louder, but that their bass goes much louder (and deeper). This should be a surprise to nobody, given that each Salon2 has 3x 8” high performance (sub)woofers in a 4-way speaker, vs the equivalent of just one 8” woofer on the 8351B as a 3-way speaker. When subwoofers or the W371 is involved to unload the bass power, I wouldn’t be surprised if the 8351B at least matches the Salon2’s SPL capabilities.

For movie content, I actually found my Genelec 8351B’s (when crossed with subwoofers) to in some ways sound more “dynamic” than the Salon2’s. But I don’t think this is due to any actual heard distortion at the levels I was driving them, but rather because the 8351B’s narrower beam gives a somewhat more frontal and energetic feeling vs the more spacious feeling of the Salon2’s.

P.S. I own Revel Salon2’s and Genelec 8351B’s and have written subjective impressions comparing them around these forums from time to time. I’ve owned and lived with the 8351B’s for a while now, though Amir has much more ear time with his Salon2’s. I’m happy to answer any other questions about subjective impression differences between these, but my impressions I’ve written (which you can find in my post history) essentially match exactly what Amir has said (though I go into a bit more detail with where I find the 8351B’s strengths win out, and similarly what scenarios the Salon’s really shine).