Genelec 8341A SAM™ Studio Monitor Review

[XpanD]

Just got a pair of these in after a long wait, and got them set up with Audyssey XT32. I let SubEQ HT dial in my subs, and then used REW to find a more sensible distance setting for a clean crossover. Took a little bit of fiddling (DSP delay?), but an extra 1.5 meters on the subs got me in the ballpark and squashed a huge dip Audyssey introduced. I am 2.1 meters away from the speakers and about the same distance from my front two subs, for what it's worth.

I cranked a few songs way beyond comfort to see how the speakers would hold up, and got to 94dB(C) at the listening position before things got too loud for me. The speakers didn't seem bothered, lights stayed green all the way. I know this is far from a perfect test due to the Audyssey filters and my 60Hz crossover, but so far so good!

(I also played around with them a little without the subs, and got down to 36Hz in-room before the response suddenly dropped off a cliff -- still feels strange hearing something this small produce that much bass!)

 

[Spocko]

Does anyone know why he never reviewed them?View attachment 115921

It was as if a veil was lifted and he started to re-listen to his entire CD collection - it may be years before he's done.

 

[jonfitch]

So, I tend to agree that people overstate the differences between Genelec and Kef dispersion. However, the Kef R3 and Revel F208 are ~2dB apart from 1-10khz, which is the region you usually notice dispersion differences as translating to spatial qualities I think.

The real question is: How audible are changes in DI? I don't think there is actually a good explanation of that in Toole's book, even. My guess would be significantly more audible than they seem intuitively.

There is a study referenced by Toole about audibility of different directivity patterns. The graphs aren't exactly... the nicest quality... but their "direct radiator" design and "cardioid" design(pg 293) seem to correspond more or less to the differences I see between the Revel F208 and the Kef R3. And the answer to "was this audible" seems to have been yes. In their first experiment, they varied only the surrounds in a 5-channel system, yet there were significant differences even then. Question 1 is envelopment, Question 2 is detail.

In the 2nd experiment, they varied the front 3 speakers, and while more marginal than the 1st experiment, differences were still audible(and proved that it's... extremely bad to have a significantly different center from your L/R, lol). We know that surround systems make it harder to discern qualitative differences between speakers, so it's logical to predict that audibility of directivity differences is significantly more pronounced in stereo, let alone mono.

It's also important to remember that sound power DI uses the listening window, which ignores vertical dispersion past +/- 10 degrees. So, built into it is the standard "vertical directivity doesn't matter that much" assumption of the Spinorama, which IMO is one of its least well-supported assumptions.

I suspect that a better way to show differences in the overall sound field created by a dispersion pattern would be to calculate the critical distance for each speaker in a standard room. Genelec does this in their "correct monitors" chart and it leads to pretty big differences even though the dispersion of their speakers doesn't vary that much. The 8341A and the 1236A are different by 2x despite the latter's horizontal dispersion being at most (+/-) 10 degrees less than the 8341A's. Vertically there is a much bigger difference, of course... Probably not.

Interestingly, the Neumann KH80, Kef R3, and Genelec 8341A are more similar than not up until about 4khz at which point Genelec diverges with consistently wider dispersion. I suspect that this, too, is audible and probably what leads to the common perception that Genelecs are brighter.

Does Genelec actually have a reputation for being bright? I know I and alot of other people use the word "bright" colloquially simply to denote "something above the bass frequencies that stands out." Which I always need to be corrected by in audiophile circles because bright is supposed to mean high frequencies, whereas forward is supposed to mean mids or lower mids. From what I've read it seems most people say Genelecs are somewhat mid-forward when perusing Gearslutz or other sites pro audio sites.

When I go back to my first impression (along with some friends who demoed it), all the first stand out impressions of the 8341 were (in audiophile corrected terms) 1) soundstage depth was compressed and 2) mids sounded really forward.

I've been playing around with EQ with the 8341 and 8331 for a few weeks and demoing against my passive speakers and playing around with Dirac EQ and my conclusion is this is something to do with the 300-1KHz range. The reason I came to this conclusion was pretty funny, I've been buying a bunch of IEMs lately and tracking how they look against the Harman Curve. And the thing I noticed the most was, IEMs that had slightly hot lower mids (300-1K) range, all gave me the same sensation as the Genelecs, particularly the Etymotic IEMs like the ER4 w/ foam tips. When we look at the Harman target, it seems at least in IEMs, listeners on average prefer a valley here in these frequencies. Whenever I heard an IEM with a rise in response here, I would often attribute it as "bright" when it reality it was the lower mids.

It's less of an issue on the 8341, but *really* stands out on the 8331. You see I don't typically listen to my speakers toed in like a lot of traditional audiophiles, I tend to point speakers straight forward (partly for cosmetics, partly because I find soundstage tends to sound more spacious when I do this with a lot of speakers) and so what I'm hearing is probably closer to the overall sound power than the on-axis response.

Well when I look at the Genelec Operating Manual, lo and behold, there's a raised shelf from 300hz to 700hz. Everything I had been describing--percussion instruments standing out and notes seeming to be too high in amplitude, forward vocals, finally made sense to me. It was in the measurements all along!

The KEFs, which is closer to my sound preference, is quite rolled off in this area, and this was why I was having some issues with the sound. In addition, when trying to EQ this area in Dirac, it made the Genelecs sound too muffled, so I guess EQing direct sound isn't a panacea when your issue has to do with the power response.

So TLDR: sometimes you gotta just demo the speakers and find if they are the right sound signature for you, and sometimes EQ doesn't fix everything. These are fantastic speakers, but they just aren't for me. I'm sending these back (demo models) and looking forward to Kef's next Reference refresh at this point I guess!

 

[thewas]

so I guess EQing direct sound isn't a panacea when your issue has to do with the power response.

Very true and

You see I don't typically listen to my speakers toed in like a lot of traditional audiophiles, I tend to point speakers straight forward (partly for cosmetics, partly because I find soundstage tends to sound more spacious when I do this with a lot of speakers) and so what I'm hearing is probably closer to the overall sound power than the on-axis response.

even if we toe them in sound power plays a role to what we hear, which is also the reason why correcting direct sound of a loudspeaker with not smooth directivity doesn't give great results.

 

[simple6]

Well when I look at the Genelec Operating Manual, lo and behold, there's a raised shelf from 300hz to 700hz. Everything I had been describing--percussion instruments standing out and notes seeming to be too high in amplitude, forward vocals, finally made sense to me. It was in the measurements all along!

I wonder if you describe what Amir reported in the measurements as woofer peaking before the woofer-mid transition. This is however more present in the 200-500Hz region.

When you refer to the measurements in the manual do you mean the 15 May 17 measurement graph?

 

[jonfitch]

I wonder if you describe what Amir reported in the measurements as woofer peaking before the woofer-mid transition. This is however more present in the 200-500Hz region.

When you refer to the measurements in the manual do you mean the 15 May 17 measurement graph?

Could be a number of issues in the 300-1K range that are causing higher amplitude than I like in this region. Some can be seen in the sound power and others in the off-axis graphs. And yeah I linked the 8331 version of the graph of the manual measurements. Its lower in amplitude for sure on the 8341, but its still a bit hotter in the lower mids than I like--the Kefs are actually slightly scooped in this area, so a different sound presentation.

As far as the woofer peaking, it's possible that was an issue. I did notice these speakers really didn't like sitting on a table or on a stand with a large top plate--the bottom slot vented woofer's output was creating some extra reflections that was muddying the sound somewhat since the bottom woofer's entire output was going straight down under the speaker. I think ideally you will want the front baffle of these speakers to actually be hanging a bit off the edge of a stand so you can get extra clearance for the bottom woofer. It's kind of a unique issue that doesn't usually exist with most stand-mount speakers. I think this is why Genelec actually sells those L stands so you can either raise the monitors or even set these up horizontally to avoid generating those reflections.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Could be a number of issues in the 300-1K range that are causing higher amplitude than I like in this region. Some can be seen in the sound power and others in the off-axis graphs. And yeah I linked the 8331 version of the graph of the manual measurements. Its lower in amplitude for sure on the 8341, but its still a bit hotter in the lower mids than I like--the Kefs are actually slightly scooped in this area, so a different sound presentation.

As far as the woofer peaking, it's possible that was an issue. I did notice these speakers really didn't like sitting on a table or on a stand with a wide bottom plate--the bottom slot vented woofer's output was creating some extra reflections that was muddying the sound somewhat since the bottom woofer's entire output was going straight down under the speaker. I think ideally you will want the front baffle of these speakers to actually be hanging a bit off the edge of a stand so you can get extra clearance for the bottom woofer. It's kind of a unique issue that doesn't usually exist with most stand-mount speakers. I think this is why Genelec actually sells those L stands so you can either raise the monitors or even set these up horizontally to avoid generating those reflections.

View attachment 116547

Wow they look much better like this then on their isopod bases!

 

[Sancus]

Does Genelec actually have a reputation for being bright? I know I and alot of other people use the word "bright" colloquially simply to denote "something above the bass frequencies that stands out."

Some have described them as brighter in comparison to Neumann(and maybe Revel, I forget) specifically, that's mostly what I was referring to. I don't think they are in general, no. I do think these differences are minor, despite being audible, and people will describe them in varying ways.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Some have described them as brighter in comparison to Neumann(and maybe Revel, I forget) specifically, that's mostly what I was referring to. I don't think they are in general, no. I do think these differences are minor, despite being audible, and people will describe them in varying ways.

I would say they are brighter but in the best way possible.
Clarity + detail sometimes make them sound a bit bright, the KH120 sounded somehow veiled in comparison.

 

[q3cpma]

Just got a pair of these in after a long wait, and got them set up with Audyssey XT32. I let SubEQ HT dial in my subs, and then used REW to find a more sensible distance setting for a clean crossover. Took a little bit of fiddling (DSP delay?), but an extra 1.5 meters on the subs got me in the ballpark and squashed a huge dip Audyssey introduced. I am 2.1 meters away from the speakers and about the same distance from my front two subs, for what it's worth.

I cranked a few songs way beyond comfort to see how the speakers would hold up, and got to 94dB(C) at the listening position before things got too loud for me. The speakers didn't seem bothered, lights stayed green all the way. I know this is far from a perfect test due to the Audyssey filters and my 60Hz crossover, but so far so good!

(I also played around with them a little without the subs, and got down to 36Hz in-room before the response suddenly dropped off a cliff -- still feels strange hearing something this small produce that much bass!)

What about standalone volume? Did you get the see the clipping light on?

 

[XpanD]

What about standalone volume? Did you get the see the clipping light on?

I'll give this a poke somewhere next week, but so far they've been green all the way. See below for some tests. Good point on standalone though, my previous tests were in stereo which would help things a bit.

 

[q3cpma]

I'll give this a poke somewhere next week, but so far they've been green all the way. Good point on standalone though, my previous tests were in stereo which will help things a bit.

By standalone, I still mean stereo and possibly boundary gain corrected by GLM, just no subwoofer.

 

[XpanD]

By standalone, I still mean stereo and possibly boundary gain corrected by GLM, just no subwoofer.

Ahh, like that. I'm not using GLM as it doesn't add much for my current setup. I can test in stereo, but is there any advantage to doing that over single-speaker mono?

For what it's worth, I was thinking about trying to ape Amir's setup to the extent that I (safely) could. 1 meter distance, one speaker playing, Z-weighting, pink (?) noise. It's going to be compromised due to room acoustics anyways, but I figured this might produce some more useful data than playing unknown songs through an unknown correction curve. (e.g. my quick test from before)

EDIT: Had a quick go at the above, this is about as loud as I dare take it. -6dB on the Marantz SR6013, -12dB on the generator, speaker input sensitivity at its highest. Same measurement settings as mentioned before, no issues. This is with a factory UMIK-1, though I did change the DIP switch settings to 24dB of gain. (from 18)

Loudness test: (numbers to the left, ignore the one on the right as it was from after the test)


Quick sweep for context, same mic position, no room correction or crossovers:

 

[q3cpma]

Ahh, like that. I'm not using GLM as it doesn't add much for my current setup. I can test in stereo, but is there any advantage to doing that over single-speaker mono?

Well, you get more headroom where it matters (bass), and it's how it's supposed to be listened to.

EDIT: Had a quick go at the above, this is about as loud as I dare take it right now. -6dB showing on the Marantz SR6013, input sensitivity at its highest. Same measurement settings as mentioned before, no issues. This is with a factory UMIK-1, though I did change the DIP switch settings to 24dB of gain. (from 18)

Loudness test:
View attachment 116580

Quick sweep for context, same mic position:
View attachment 116581

So no apparent SPL limit to you?

 

[XpanD]

So no apparent SPL limit to you?

I don't think I listen particularly loud (need to measure this again at some point), but I've had zero issues so far. Still getting used to the set, so if anything does trip it I'll be sure to post here.

EDIT: Throwing in one last pic from my most recent session with some "jam out with your yam out" moments, way louder than I'd normally listen:



This is at 2.1 meters with Audyssey active again, and subs in play from 60Hz down, playing a mix of acoustic and electronic with a fair bit of bass. No issues, and they stay clean and composed even at these crazy (for me) levels. They don't seem to harshen up at all. I'm sure the room gain and triple subs help, but man... I adore these things so far.

 

[XpanD]

Just ran across a weird issue on one of my 8341s after it woke up from standby -- the light was on and wouldn't turn off again! I have the LED Disable DIP setting enabled on both, but for some reason one of my speakers decided at random to just start ignoring that. Toggling it while the speaker was on did not do anything either, unlike the other speaker where it would turn on and off as expected.

I managed to fix it by turning it off, disconnecting it from power, holding down the power button (to drain any caps) and then powering it back on, but I'm not entirely sure what happened there. Has anybody else here seen this? No GLM in use, and nothing saved. (though I did briefly test it a few days ago, and also toggled the lights in software at that time)

(on the topic of minor but strange issues... I also had the sticker with the connector info just fall straight off the other speaker while moving it around, though I was able to stick it back on)

 

[Spocko]

Just ran across a weird issue on one of my 8341s after it woke up from standby -- the light was on and wouldn't turn off again! I have the LED Disable DIP setting enabled on both, but for some reason one of my speakers decided at random to just start ignoring that. Toggling it while the speaker was on did not do anything either, unlike the other speaker where it would turn on and off as expected.

I managed to fix it by turning it off, disconnecting it from power, holding down the power button (to drain any caps) and then powering it back on, but I'm not entirely sure what happened there. Has anybody else here seen this? No GLM in use, and nothing saved. (though I did briefly test it a few days ago, and also toggled the lights in software at that time)

(on the topic of minor but strange issues... I also had the sticker with the connector info just fall straight off the other speaker while moving it around, though I was able to stick it back on)

Don't laugh but solar flares can do crazy things to electronics now and then. Here's a quick link to a pop science article http://bit.ly/3qD6PI2

 

[jonfitch]

Just ran across a weird issue on one of my 8341s after it woke up from standby -- the light was on and wouldn't turn off again! I have the LED Disable DIP setting enabled on both, but for some reason one of my speakers decided at random to just start ignoring that. Toggling it while the speaker was on did not do anything either, unlike the other speaker where it would turn on and off as expected.

I managed to fix it by turning it off, disconnecting it from power, holding down the power button (to drain any caps) and then powering it back on, but I'm not entirely sure what happened there. Has anybody else here seen this? No GLM in use, and nothing saved. (though I did briefly test it a few days ago, and also toggled the lights in software at that time)

(on the topic of minor but strange issues... I also had the sticker with the connector info just fall straight off the other speaker while moving it around, though I was able to stick it back on)

Yeah this is kind of why I also decided not to go with the Genelecs. On top of a lot of proprietary hardware was also proprietary software issues. Same reason I avoid the Homepod even though it's a great BT speaker, I can't stand the proprietary bugs and other issues.

One day during my demo 1 only 1 speaker worked (slave) and not the master channel. If I switched cables it would swap which was the working speaker. And one time the volume meter got stuck at 100% on GLM until I reinstalled GLM windows software.

 

[Spocko]

Yeah this is kind of why I also decided not to go with the Genelecs. On top of a lot of proprietary hardware was also proprietary software issues. Same reason I avoid the Homepod even though it's a great BT speaker, I can't stand the proprietary bugs and other issues.

One day during my demo 1 only 1 speaker worked (slave) and not the master channel. If I switched cables it would swap which was the working speaker. And one time the volume meter got stuck at 100% on GLM until I reinstalled GLM windows software.

I think this would be a vulnerability of all DSP driven active speakers, whether Genelecs or not.

 

[Sancus]

GLM definitely has some usability issues... there are a bunch of ways to disable monitors or mess up the response on any of them, and it's not always 100% clear what settings are active. I once accidentally left only one monitor with a -0.5dB/oct rolloff, and only after about 20 minutes of listening to music and hearing weird things did I realize what had happened.

That said, I haven't had any unreliability, every time something is busted it's because I did it.