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Genelec 8341A SAM™ Studio Monitor Review

aarons915

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So, I tend to agree that people overstate the differences between Genelec and Kef dispersion. However, the Kef R3 and Revel F208 are ~2dB apart from 1-10khz, which is the region you usually notice dispersion differences as translating to spatial qualities I think.

q5Y74dd.png


The real question is: How audible are changes in DI? I don't think there is actually a good explanation of that in Toole's book, even. My guess would be significantly more audible than they seem intuitively.

There is a study referenced by Toole about audibility of different directivity patterns. The graphs aren't exactly... the nicest quality... but their "direct radiator" design and "cardioid" design(pg 293) seem to correspond more or less to the differences I see between the Revel F208 and the Kef R3. And the answer to "was this audible" seems to have been yes. In their first experiment, they varied only the surrounds in a 5-channel system, yet there were significant differences even then. Question 1 is envelopment, Question 2 is detail.

kImNbHM.png


In the 2nd experiment, they varied the front 3 speakers, and while more marginal than the 2nd experiment, differences were still audible(and proved that it's... extremely bad to have a significantly different center from your surrounds, lol). We know that surround systems make it harder to discern qualitative differences between speakers, so it's logical to predict that audibility of directivity differences is significantly more pronounced in stereo, let alone mono.

It's also important to remember that sound power DI uses the listening window, which ignores vertical dispersion past +/- 10 degrees. So, built into it is the standard "vertical directivity doesn't matter that much" assumption of the Spinorama, which IMO is one of its least well-supported assumptions.

I suspect that a better way to show differences in the overall sound field created by a dispersion pattern would be to calculate the critical distance for each speaker in a standard room. Genelec does this in their "correct monitors" chart and it leads to pretty big differences even though the dispersion of their speakers doesn't vary that much. The 8341A and the 1236A are different by 2x despite the latter's horizontal dispersion being at most (+/-) 10 degrees less than the 8341A's. Vertically there is a much bigger difference, of course...

Interestingly, the Neumann KH80, Kef R3, and Genelec 8341A are more similar than not up until about 4khz at which point Genelec diverges with consistently wider dispersion. I suspect that this, too, is audible and probably what leads to the common perception that Genelecs are brighter.

Good points but one thing we don't discuss much is not just how wide directivity is but also how smooth, the Revel F208 is a good example of a wider directivity but it's also very ragged, which means the direct sound and reflections will be different, how audible that is I don't know either.

The other relevant study I'm sure you're aware of is the mono vs stereo tests where there was a large difference in spaciousness in mono but the differences were negligible in stereo, that is evidence to me that we should really be focusing on the measurements being neutral and smooth in the listening window and early reflections but not worrying as much about how wide the dispersion is.
 

Sancus

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Good points but one thing we don't discuss much is not just how wide directivity is but also how smooth, the Revel F208 is a good example of a wider directivity but it's also very ragged, which means the direct sound and reflections will be different, how audible that is I don't know either.

The other relevant study I'm sure you're aware of is the mono vs stereo tests where there was a large difference in spaciousness in mono but the differences were negligible in stereo, that is evidence to me that we should really be focusing on the measurements being neutral and smooth in the listening window and early reflections but not worrying as much about how wide the dispersion is.

Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I mean, there is a reason I have Genelecs :p There is quite a big difference in smoothness between the lower end Revels like the F208 and the higher end like F328Be, however. I think maybe the spatial difference would be clearer if you were comparing those(or the Salon 2s, which are even wider). And I don't think those impressions would necessarily generalize to the lower end Revels either.

The question is where the threshold is between dispersion and neutrality becoming more important, and that's really really tough to answer without a double blind study designed to determine it. Especially since most of the older studies used speakers that had significantly bigger neutrality differences than Genelecs vs Neumanns or any of the modern higher end constant directivity designs.
 

aarons915

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Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I mean, there is a reason I have Genelecs :p There is quite a big difference in smoothness between the lower end Revels like the F208 and the higher end like F328Be, however. I think maybe the spatial difference would be clearer if you were comparing those(or the Salon 2s, which are even wider). And I don't think those impressions would necessarily generalize to the lower end Revels either.

The question is where the threshold is between dispersion and neutrality becoming more important, and that's really really tough to answer without a double blind study designed to determine it. Especially since most of the older studies used speakers that had significantly bigger neutrality differences than Genelecs vs Neumanns or any of the modern higher end constant directivity designs.

Agreed. One other thing that has always stuck with me is Dr. Toole has mentioned that in the many mono vs stereo tests they have run over the decades, the speaker that wins in mono "always" wins in stereo. This is important because if dispersion were that important to preference it is very conceivable that a wide dispersion but less neutral speaker could win in mono but lose in stereo. Since this has apparently never happened, it suggests that a neutral frequency response is the most important aspect of preference, at least that's how I interpret the results.
 

maverickronin

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Agreed. One other thing that has always stuck with me is Dr. Toole has mentioned that in the many mono vs stereo tests they have run over the decades, the speaker that wins in mono "always" wins in stereo. This is important because if dispersion were that important to preference it is very conceivable that a wide dispersion but less neutral speaker could win in mono but lose in stereo. Since this has apparently never happened, it suggests that a neutral frequency response is the most important aspect of preference, at least that's how I interpret the results.

I don't think that question was ever specifically studied, at least I don't remember it mentioned in his book. It seems to just be inferred from their other tests, which were almost all of "conventional" designs.

It seems intuitive that a narrow dispersion would be penalized in mono and what little data there is for this specifically (or at least that I remember from his book, the one graph representing a (the only?) test with a panel speaker) can easily be interpreted as supporting the idea since it improved so dramatically in stereo.
 

aarons915

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I don't think that question was ever specifically studied, at least I don't remember it mentioned in his book. It seems to just be inferred from their other tests, which were almost all of "conventional" designs.

It seems intuitive that a narrow dispersion would be penalized in mono and what little data there is for this specifically (or at least that I remember from his book, the one graph representing a (the only?) test with a panel speaker) can easily be interpreted as supporting the idea since it improved so dramatically in stereo.

No it wasn't specifically studied but can be inferred from the mono/stereo study as far as speakers in stereo bridging the spaciousness gap. My comment about speakers in mono always winning in stereo was a comment on AVS forum, you can find it fairly easily by searching his posts with the word mono in it, there is a lot valuable information in most of his posts that aren't necessarily spelled out in his books.
 
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Senior NEET Engineer

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So, I tend to agree that people overstate the differences between Genelec and Kef dispersion. I suspect that a better way to show differences in the overall sound field created by a dispersion pattern would be to calculate the critical distance for each speaker in a standard room. Genelec does this in their "correct monitors" chart and it leads to pretty big differences even though the dispersion of their speakers doesn't vary that much. The 8341A and the 1236A are different by 2x despite the latter's horizontal dispersion being at most (+/-) 10 degrees less than the 8341A's. Vertically there is a much bigger difference, of course...

How are you comparing the 8341A and 1236A "critical distance"? The page you linked has them simulated in different rooms (8341A 3000 cu ft 1236A 14000 cu ft).
 

Sancus

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How are you comparing the 8341A and 1236A "critical distance"? The page you linked has them simulated in different rooms (8341A 3000 cu ft 1236A 14000 cu ft).

Ah you're right, I definitely missed that. Maybe I'm wrong that it's a better method than DI then. Also, that does imply the Ones would be suitable in larger rooms than some people previously thought, I think.

E: I striked out that part of the post. The rest stands.
 
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Frank Dernie

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How are you comparing the 8341A and 1236A "critical distance"? The page you linked has them simulated in different rooms (8341A 3000 cu ft 1236A 14000 cu ft).
Is that the room size simulated, or the maximum room size recommended?
It seems far more likely to be recommended.
In terms of critical distance the distance to the side walls would be a critical dimension because of reflection to a far greater extent than room volume.
 

Sancus

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Is that the room size simulated, or the maximum room size recommended?
It seems far more likely to be recommended.
In terms of critical distance the distance to the side walls would be a critical dimension because of reflection to a far greater extent than room volume.

Based on the blurb it sounds like they are using the formula that is a function of directivity, room volume, and RT60. Which are conveniently listed there. So I believe he's correct. Just not sure why I didn't notice before :p
 

Frank Dernie

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Based on the blurb it sounds like they are using the formula that is a function of directivity, room volume, and RT60. Which are conveniently listed there. So I believe he's correct. Just not sure why I didn't notice before :p
I have re-read the page, which I have bookmarked and read lots of times before, and haven't seen that in the data.
There is a maximum room volume and loudness spec.
The listening distance recommended varies from too close, to direct sound dominating to reverberant sound dominating.
I see no suggestion that the transition from direct sound to reverberant sound transition varies in a different room size (the room size is a maximum, there is no recommended minimum, one would use common sense here I suppose. There is a blend area in the colour coding, since the transition distance won't be fixed.
It doesn't suggest not using any of the speakers further away, simply that direct soulnd no longer dominates.
Personally I want direct sound to dominate, so the chart is useful to me.
 

Sancus

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I see no suggestion that the transition from direct sound to reverberant sound transition varies in a different room size (the room size is a maximum, there is no recommended minimum, one would use common sense here I suppose. There is a blend area in the colour coding, since the transition distance won't be fixed.

Below the direct sound dominance chart is this:

f7BKNW2.png


There are some very complicated ways to calculate critical distance, but a very commonly used simplification is this function and it only has the 3 parameters stated above(RT60, room volume, and directivity of the source).

It seems 100% clear to me that that blurb is an explanation of how they calculated critical distance and thus the room volume and RT60 are significant factors in the final result, and they differ for each speaker.
 

Frank Dernie

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Below the direct sound dominance chart is this:

f7BKNW2.png


There are some very complicated ways to calculate critical distance, but a very commonly used simplification is this function and it only has the 3 parameters stated above(RT60, room volume, and directivity of the source).

It seems 100% clear to me that that blurb is an explanation of how they calculated critical distance and thus the room volume and RT60 are significant factors in the final result, and they differ for each speaker.
I hadn't noticed that either :facepalm:.
Now I need to examine the formula to get an ide of the relative importance of each parameter :facepalm:
 

Draculr

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I'm still waiting on my 8330a's to arrive with the GLM kit. I'm still a bit confused as to how I should connect them to my PC. Do I go with regular analogue xlr out of my Schiit Magnius or do I go with an AES connection? Is there any real noticable benefit of going with the AES digital connection? Does it affect the GLM calibration at all?
 

soundwave76

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I'm still waiting on my 8330a's to arrive with the GLM kit. I'm still a bit confused as to how I should connect them to my PC. Do I go with regular analogue xlr out of my Schiit Magnius or do I go with an AES connection? Is there any real noticable benefit of going with the AES digital connection? Does it affect the GLM calibration at all?

Via AES digital, don't even think about analog. Consider for example Matrix X-SPDIF for this.
 

Draculr

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Via AES digital, don't even think about analog. Consider for example Matrix X-SPDIF for this.

Is there a name for this sort of device that goes from USB or optical to AES? It's hard to find a list of available devices. Up until now I had only seen the small Hosa optical to AES unit.
 

soundwave76

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USB-AES interface. There are some brands that offer devices for this, e.g. Matrix X-SPDIF 2, Mutec MC3+, Singxer SU-1. You can also use USB DACs that have digital out like Topping D10. Then you need a simple passive converter module for S-PDIF/RCA->AES for example from Neutrik.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/neutrik_naditbncm.htm
 
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zzz

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Would this work too? https://shenzhenaudio.com/collectio...k-dsd512-dop-and-native-dsd-digital-interface

So what I'd need is that device, two AES cables (one from the U16 to one speaker and then one from that speaker to the 2nd speaker?) and then the genelec volume controller. Is that all?

Yes that sounds about right. You also mentioned you have or am getting the GLM kit. That is necessary for the Genelec volume controllers either wired dial or wireless) to work.
 

soundwave76

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If you use this setup with a PC, I don’t think you need the external volume controller. I use just my mouse’s wheel with the GLM software. You also need an ethernet cables between the Genelecs and the AES interface.
 
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